Posted on 02/07/2006 10:41:24 AM PST by DouglasKC
Well, if He knows, and creates us anyway, then whatever happens is His doing, His plan. If God cannot be wrong, then how can we be doing anything other than what He has planned?
Until someone invents a time machine, we'll never really know if we could have chosen otherwise, even though we believed we could.
I think it's the difference between knowing the outcome and controlling the outcome. I heard a good analogy on this site not too long ago. God can see us and our events as if he's waching a videotape of a football game. He can speed up or slow down the action. He can fast forward. He knows the final score. He can stop or pause the action. He can destroy the tape if he wishes, override our free will and destroy us all.
In our case, the end of the game is salvation for all those who obey:
Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
And the second death for those who don't:
Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
God let's us use our free will to determine our individual outcomes for ourselves. That doesn't mean he plans how it will come out, but he does know where our choices will lead us.
Until someone invents a time machine, we'll never really know if we could have chosen otherwise, even though we believed we could.
I might have agreed with you at one time. But faith in Christ grows confidence in the outcome.
Eph 3:8 To me, the very least of all saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unfathomable riches of Christ,
Eph 3:9 and to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God who created all things;
Eph 3:10 so that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places.
Eph 3:11 This was in accordance with the eternal purpose which He carried out in Christ Jesus our Lord,
Eph 3:12 in whom we have boldness and confident access through faith in Him.
It isn't self-delusion, wishful thinking, or even hope. It's a confidence that comes from seeing the changes Christ works in us and in those around us.
Well, you believe that God will destroy us, if He overrides our free-will, and I believe that He controls our free-will. We're just different.
As you say, it's all a matter of faith.
If you think about that statement you will realize it is self-contradictory.
Either we have free will or we are controlled by another. These are mutually exclusive things.
The Scriptures both "old" and "new" are filled with words like "choose," "repent," "trust," "obey," "believe"--all these indicate personal free choice and decision-making--the human will.
Every moment of every day we are making choices based upon what we have already heard and already believed. This belief system becomes evident to those who observe us in the actions they see us taking. There are some who think they make no choice by refusing to do or say a thing; I contend with Scripture that the "not doing" is also a choice and a decision, demonstrating a belief system that is already in place and at work.
I believe you are seeking these things out.
Here is a very simple metaphor that occurs to me:
If you love someone, let them go; if they come back to you then the love is complete.
For love is not a thing to be coerced.
Well, I think I'm more closely saying that God can override our free will if he desires, but will not do it. He doesn't intefere with the choices made on the field, but has overall control of how the game is played out. I admit thought that the analogy isn't perfect.
As you say, it's all a matter of faith.
Yes, but not faith in the way you mean it. The faith IN Chris is much different than say, the faith that I have in my wife or kids. Faith in Christ and his teachings fundamentally changes our entire being.
OK, I'll re-phrase it by saying He controls what we believe is our free-will.
How do you know that we could have made different choices? I'm sure you believe it, but you will never truly know it.
How do you know what God will do?
I don't. But I do know what he promises to do. He reveals that in scripture.
OK, thanks.
Examine those words.
If there are differing choices it is evident that a choice can be made.
I'm sure you believe it, but you will never truly know it.
I would remind you that truths exist and are (by nature) true whether or not an individual knows or believes them to be true.
2 + 2 = 4. A child of one or perhaps two years of age does not know this and has not the capacity to believe it. Is it therefore not true for that child? I contend that it remains true, and the effects of the truth are everywhere effictive upon that very child--mother feeds him twice in the morning and twice at night and the child is fed four times; the child has upon his body two socks, a diaper, and a gown: the child is wearing four items of clothing.
"[S]ince the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse."
Romans 1:20
I share these things with you because I believe that you really want to know the truth. The God who gave you life and created and sustains the whole of what is created wants you to know and believe the truth. The whole of what He does--all that exists--is for this purpose: that the world may know.
He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 1
OK, I'll re-phrase it by saying..'how do you know we had a choice?'
Of course physical evidence shows that 2+2=4, whether one believes it or not, but we are not talking about things that can be represented by physical evidence.
I believe in God with no way of proving it, I am not a Christian...you believe in God, with no way of proving it, and you are a Christian...others believe differently, with no way of proving it. This is just the way it is, and probably always will be.
You are faced with a choice in this moment: Either you believe this (because you know it to be true) or you disbelieve (because you know it to be a lie). There is no third category for "I need more evidence," or "Not right now," as a response, for that sort of response equals a negative reply and falls under the category "I do not believe." By the Infinite Grace of Almighty God another opportunity to answer this question may arise for you, but the fact is that right now is the only moment you can be sure of having. Your eternal destiny, and, I add, your earthly assurance, rests in how you answer that question. God does not answer it for you: He is the Questioner.
Jesus Himself presents the crux of it to you best, from John 11:20-26
When Martha heard that Jesus was coming, she went out to meet him, but Mary stayed at home.There are only two possible answers to this question."Lord," Martha said to Jesus, "if you had been here, my brother would not have died. But I know that even now God will give you whatever you ask."
Jesus said to her, "Your brother will rise again."
Martha answered, "I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day."
Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"
There are really, three choices, and three answers.
I think there is a big difference between disbelieving (because you know it to be a lie), and disbelieving because of the need for more evidence....besides, how does one know to be true, their beliefs, or knows a belief is a lie?
It may fall under the category of dis-belief, but certainly not because one knows it to be a lie, simply because it may just be unbelievable.
None of this really matters, anyway, because, as I've said earlier, I do not believe we have these choices.
Today you will face the choice to have faith or not have faith. Without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him (Hebrews 11:6). Will you sit still waiting for God to bring you faith because He is the One Who Made You to need faith?
If you work for food to fill your belly you do well (Ecc. 2:24), for "if a man will not work he shall not eat (2 Thes. 3:10)." If you work for faith you do better, for "he who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks, the door will be opened (Matt. 7:7-8)."
Are you willing to work for food to sustain this life and not willing to work for the food of the next? You say there is a God. Not a bad place to start, but I tell you plainly, even demons know there is One God, and they shudder! They know they will have to give an account to the Judge of All. Now you also know: "And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account (Hebrews 4:13)."
In John 6 Jesus says, "Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him.” Then you may rightly ask Him, “What shall I do, that I may work the works God requires?” Jesus answers and says to you, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.” Therefore will you say to Him, “What sign will You perform then, that I may see it and believe You? What work will You do?"
He is already at His work; now get to yours. He set this world in its place and set you on it and sustains both you and it. He made you with a stomach for food and food for your stomach. He made you a vessel for faith and faith for the vessel. Take hold of that for which Christ Jesus has taken hold of you. "Work out your own faith with fear and trembling, for God is already at His work in you for His own purposes (Phil 2:12-13)," else you and I would never have had this discussion.
Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn't do it, sins.
James 4:17
I will say again what Scripture affirms, "If a man will not work, he shall not eat." This truth applies to faith as well as to food, and it is more important to faith, "For physical training is of some value, but godliness has value for all things, holding promise for both the present life and the life to come (1 Tim. 6:8)." There are few exceptions to this truth, and you appear to qualify for none; these exceptions are children and the disabled. God will not hold them accountable for what they are not able to perform. In fact He will more gladly perform on their behalf what He knows better than all they are unable to do...and He knows full well what thou art capable of.
The work God requires of you is that you believe on His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, who died for your sins and arose for your justification. This is eternal life: to know Him, the Only True God, and Jesus Christ Whom He has sent (John 17:3).
I will eat, because I have the biological need. The way God designed me.
I have the faith that is unique to me, as God designed me.
(God said it twice, so you couldn't miss it :)
Hopefully, we'll find out when we die.
FRegards, stuartcr.
Thank you.
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