Doctrinal head (Levada): Openly gay priests make it tough to represent Christ

Catholic News Agency ^ | February 27, 2006 | Cindy Wooden

[smpb]

Mr. Petronius Maximus,

It wouldn't hurt to learn the teachings of your own faith. The word "validity" has a precise meaning in Catholic theology. It does not mean "it's a good idea". A valid sacrament is one that has really happened rather than one that merely seemed to happen but did not. A marriage is "valid" if it truly took place. If a woman marries a man who is a complete jerk, that may be a bad mistake. Maybe she wishes she hadn't married him. But if the marriage was vaid, then she did marry him and that's that. A man who has homosexual tendencies and is ordained to the priesthood, is "validly" ordained, in the sense that the ordination really took place. Levada is saying that it is a bad idea to ordain homosexually oriented people, but that the ones who have already been ordained are in fact priests, for better or worse. Of course, a priest who misbehaves can be removed from actually serving in ministry. But according to Catholic theology a priest is a priest no matter what he does. A priest could commit mass murder and he would still be a priest, just as a baptized person could commit mass murder and he'd remain a baptized person, and a married man who commits mass murder remains married. Some sacraments are irreversable in their effects. Of course, a woman who finds her husband is a mass murderer doesn't hgave to live with him, but she's still married to him. And a priest who is a pervert is still a priest though he should not be given a parish.

[Antoninus]

(Disclosure: Pyro7480 knows, but others may not, that I am not Catholic - I am an evangelical Christian.)

No kidding! I would never have been able to figure it out.... /s

[Antoninus]

Well, I assume you didn't baptize yourself. And you do not know for sure whether the person who baptized you had just committed a serious sin. So, given your earlier statements in this thread, it follows that you don't know whether your baptism was valid.

I think it's pretty clear that PM is a Donatist. There is nothing new under the sun.

[Antoninus]

News for you: Christ doesn't use pedophile sodomites in his holy service, he casts them into the lake of fire.

Does he use adulterers? The arrogant? The grasping and greedy? The defrauders of the elderly? Liars and charlatans?

I know some evangelical preachers that fall into the above categories. That mote in your eye is larger than you think.

[Antoninus]

Interestingly, the Donatist heresy so weakened The Church in North Africa that it is likely that it lead to the rapid collapse of Christianity there when the Mohammadens showed up.

That and the 80 years of Arain Vandalic rule, and the endless Berber and military rebellions, and the fact that the exarch Heraclius had to strip the province of soldiers to overthrow the tyrant Phocas in Constantinople in AD 610...

[PetroniusMaximus]

"Does he use adulterers?" - No

"The arrogant?" - No

"The grasping and greedy?" - No

"The defrauders of the elderly?" - No

"Liars and charlatans?" - No


"I know some evangelical preachers that fall into the above categories."

Perhaps they do. Being an "evangelical preacher" doesn't mean one is bing used by God. Many "preachers" are tools of the devil - as are many "priests".


"That mote in your eye is larger than you think."

This ain't about "motes" friend. It's about whether God requires righteousness and holiness in His servants. It's also about a theology which requires one to ignore what God has revealed Himself to be in the Scriptures. God will not use a pedophile sodomite in His holy work. Why is that so hard for you to accept???

[Antoninus]

God will not use a pedophile sodomite in His holy work. Why is that so hard for you to accept???

Because God is not subject to the strictures put upon him by you.

Question: Do you think that someone who has committed pedophile sodomy is beyond the forgiveness of God?

[PetroniusMaximus]

"Because God is not subject to the strictures put upon him by you."

Your theology is blinding you to the righteousness of God.


"Question: Do you think that someone who has committed pedophile sodomy is beyond the forgiveness of God?"

Absolutely not. But until they seek and receive that forgiveness they are cut off from God and God will not use them as a channel of His Holy Spirit or of His blessing.

[Antoninus]

Absolutely not. But until they seek and receive that forgiveness they are cut off from God and God will not use them as a channel of His Holy Spirit or of His blessing.

So... at exactly what point is someone who has committed pedophile sodomy no longer a pedophile sodomite? And after that point, is it possible for God to use that person as a channel for His Holy Spirit?

[PetroniusMaximus]

"So... at exactly what point is someone who has committed pedophile sodomy no longer a pedophile sodomite? "

Look at this...

"Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.


They WERE evil. But then they were washed, sanctified, justified. In other words, they repented of their sins and entered into salvation.



"And after that point, is it possible for God to use that person as a channel for His Holy Spirit?"

By virtue of the cleansing power of Christ's blood, shed on their behalf and for their forgiveness and by virtue of the power of the Holy Spirit to enable and empower them to live a righteous life, yes. It is possible for any forgiven sinner, no matter how great their sin, to be used by God and a channel of His blessing.

As the Lord said to Isaiah:
"Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow;"

[Antoninus]

It is possible for any forgiven sinner, no matter how great their sin, to be used by God and a channel of His blessing.

I agree. We're not really arguing about anything, are we?

As for those who persist in the sin of pedophile sodomy (or any grave sin, for that matter), they should be immediately defrocked and laicized lest they spread their error to others.

The Church often errs on the side of forgivness of those who sin within priestly orders. In the past, they have tended to forgive those who's repentence seemed to be in earnest but was shown, in hindsight, to be a sham. I suspect that error will be made with decreasing frequency going ahead.