Posted on 03/14/2006 12:47:42 PM PST by tbird5
OME -- The sudden recovery of a young French nun suffering from Parkinson's disease is at the heart of the sainthood case for Pope John Paul II, the Polish priest who heads the inquiry said Monday.
The Vatican needs to confirm a miracle after John Paul's death for the pontiff to be beatified, the first step toward his possible canonization.
Monsignor Slawomir Oder told The Associated Press in an interview that an official inquiry into the nun's inexplicable recovery was beginning this week.
(Excerpt) Read more at washingtonpost.com ...
staw man you guys.
The Church doesn't actually teach it is the saints themselves performing the miracles, but rather God performing them with the intercession of the saint.
It is like when I hear my protestant friends say "Pastor Smith has been given a great gift of healing"
or "So-and-so has been given the gift of wisdom"
Well...everyone understands these folks don't possess these gifts of their own power...but through God.
When Pastor Smith "heals" someone - it is through his intercession, not of his own power.
This is how the Church looks at the intercession of the saints.
So...the issue isn't idolatry, what I find is the real issue is how the different faiths treat the issue of christians who have gone to heaven.
Catholics think these souls are still capable of intercession, and are fully aware of earthly events.
It appears to me that non-catholics think these souls are incapable of this.
It's one way to do an end run around the problem of the Apostolic Succession . . .
Of course, the problem with this theory is that St. Patrick was educated and ordained to the priesthood on the Continent (at Auxerre in Burgundy), and his boss St. Germain chose him to accompany him when he was sent by the Pope to convert the Irish.
The problem is further compounded by the fact that religions are based upon faith.
"After John Paul died on April 2, the woman's superior-general asked all the other sisters in their community in France to pray to the late pope to intervene to help the woman. On June 2, she was cured, Oder said.
Sounds to me like they were praying for the pope to intervene. And that my friend is idolatry because
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;1Tim 2:5"
OK then fair is fair....the next time you or a loved one are injured or sick, the sick person must DIRECTLY appeal to God on their own. They MUST NOT ask YOU to pray for them. You must not ask anyone else to pray for you.
good enough?
I'm betting they're going to say it's a miracle. The RCC desperately wants to canonize John Paul II. Myself, I'm not big on miracles.
What you have never seen one? Me neither.
Thanks for the namecalling. Is there anything else you would like to add? I already acknowledged in another post that I erred. I'm trying to recall where I read -- or misread --that he wsn't a Catholic.
Out of curiousity, what would be a convincing "miracle" to you? Water into wine? Loaves and fishes?
And if you were convinced of a miracle, what would that do to your "faith"?
I always find it fascinating that atheists try to beat the Church down. It's as if they always have to prove their atheism.
No matter what you say or do to prove a "miracle" as some healing of a common ailment, people of faith will continue to have faith. That's what it is all about.
You and everyone else are correct. Can't recall where I could have read that he wasn't a Catholic. I probably read that he wasn't born a Catholic. My mistake.
Don't you think the Church knows this? Are you somehow so arrogant that you don't believe their are skeptics, doctors, and logicians as great as you that are not going to try and debunk this miracle within the Church? The canonization process is long and extremely difficult. Though this is only one small part of the whole canonization process have you ever heard of the Promoter of the Faith:
from http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12454a.htm
An official of the Roman Congregation of Rites. The office was created by Clement XI, 7 April, 1708. In earlier times the work now undertaken by the Promotor Fidei was entrusted to the Promotor Fiscalis or some consistorial advocate. The Promotor Fidei is also an official of the Congregation of Indulgences and Sacred Relics, but his main duty is performed in the processes of beatification and canonization, which are conducted by the Congregation of Rites. It is the special care of the Promoter of the Faith to prevent any rash decisions concerning miracles or virtues of the candidates for the honours of the altar. All documents of beatification and canonization processes must be submitted to his examination, and the difficulties and doubts he raises over the virtues and miracles are laid before th congregation and must be satisfactorily answered before any further steps can be taken in the processes. It is his duty to suggest natural explanations for alleged miracles, and even to bring forward human and selfish motives for deeds that have been accounted heroic virtues. For the examination of witnesses outside of Rome, the promoter formulates the questions and he has the power to appoint sub- promoters to assist him. All the processes for beatification and canonization must be submitted to the promoter under pain of nullity. Owing to his peculiar duty of antagonizing the proofs put forward on behalf of persons proposed for saintly honours, the Promoter of the Faith is commonly referred to, half jocosely, as the devil's advocate.
The requirement is: two miracles (not "by" the saint, but by God through the saint's intercession.) Both after the person's death. One for "beatification" and the second for "canonization."
And the Church usually has skeptics, agnostics, etc. among those who are invesigating and evaluating the purported miracle, to confirm that it is truly inexplicable on a natural level, and not just a matter of wishful thinking.
Christ and his Apostles referred to the members of HIS church as Saints.
"What you have never seen one? Me neither.
"
No, I actually haven't. I find miraculous "cures" to be the most questionable sort of miracles, anyway. So many illnesses can go away all on their own that it seems a little iffy to claim that a particular illness was miraculously cured.
In the case under discussion, of course the other nuns prayed for the healing of their sister. Apparently, her symptoms disappeared. Now, did she actually have Parkinson's disease? I'd want to know what tests were done while she suffered the symptoms. It's pretty hard to definitively diagnose.
If it was one of the disorders that mimics Parkinson's, some of those disorders can spontaneously go into remission. If so, no miracle. But...one would have to have a definitive diagnosis in the first place.
So many problems with miraculous cures.
Wasn't he from Scotland?
Nice try. Do you REALLY think that's what it means or are you trying to be slick here?
Patrick was born Patricius somewhere in Roman Britain to a relatively wealthy family. He was not religious as a youth and, in fact, claims to have practically renounced the faith of his family.
While in his teens, Patrick was kidnapped in a raid and transported to Ireland, where he was enslaved to a local warlord and worked as a shepherd until he escaped six years later.
He returned home and eventually undertook studies for the priesthood with the intention of returning to Ireland as a missionary to his former captors. It is not clear when he actually made it back to Ireland, or for how long he ministered there, but it was definitely for a number of years.
http://www.americancatholic.org/Messenger/Mar1997/feature1.asp
(How are you doing? I am A-OK --- no slip-ups!).
You are a jerk. Find a different thread.
Now its coming back to me. Yes, he was actually born is Scotland. And yes, I shouldn't drink Jamesons' while reading about the saints.
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