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To: tlRCta
Thank you for you informative reply and references (one of which – the intermediate Mass of 1965 – is a dead link, unfortunately).

Not so long ago, I purchased a book The Mass of the Early Christians (Mike Aquilina, Sunday Visitor Publishing), which actually contains parts of the Liturgy of St. James and others. It is a great book (just 200 pages in length, inexpensive) and I highly recommend it.

Based on the text supplied, the Great Litany starts with words resembling the Roman Mass "Peace be with you, and with your spirit, The Lord bless us all and sanctify us..."

The rest, however, is almost word by word as it is in the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom (In peace let us pray to the Lord, Lord have mercy,From the peace that is from on high..." including the Trisagion (Holy God, Holy mighty, Holy immortal, have mercy on us" and close similarities, almost identical, are in the Eucharistic Prayer, the Communion Prayer ("Let us bow our heads to the Lord, To you O Lord,...One is Holy, one Lord Jesus Christ, to the glory of God the Father, to whom be the glory to all eternity..."), all these are still to be found in the Orthodox Divine Liturgy unchanged.

So, while some parts of the Novus Ordo are to be found in the ancient Liturgy of St. James (such as "Holy, Holy, HOly, Lord Savaoth (of hosts), heaven and earth are full of Thy glory, Hosanna in the Highest. Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord, Hosanna in the highest.") which is also found in Orthodox Divine Liturgy preceding Holy Communion, I am not sure which other parts, save for the introductory Kyrie eleison or God have mercy (which we Orthodox repeat constantly), are from St. James.

Again, the Tridentine Mass which NYer was kinf to include, had numerous elements that were clearly recognizable as one and the same Divine (Holy) Liturgy, which is not the case with NO, although allegedly NO (by content) doe snot resemble much of the Eastern tradition internally or externally (repeated signs of the cross, signing the entire Service, kissing the hand of the priest, holding tall candles during the reading of the Gospels, three steps to the altar, priest facing ad orientem, etc.)

If you learn more about this (and undoubtedly you will), sharing your knowledge will be most appreciated. One would imagine that the Western fathers in the 1960's stated good reasons how and why the Mass was changed. I am not sure where they are to be found.

53 posted on 08/13/2006 8:46:11 PM PDT by kosta50 (Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50

Hello kosta,

I think a parentheses got attached to the original link for the '65, thus creating the dead link. Here is the link to the Mass of '65; I hope it will work: http://www.coreyzelinski.8m.com/1965_Mass/

I haven't read much of Aquilina, but what I have read is good. Thanks for the suggestion.

"Again, the Tridentine Mass which NYer was kinf to include, had numerous elements that were clearly recognizable as one and the same Divine (Holy) Liturgy, which is not the case with NO, although allegedly NO (by content) doe snot resemble much of the Eastern tradition internally or externally (repeated signs of the cross, signing the entire Service, kissing the hand of the priest, holding tall candles during the reading of the Gospels, three steps to the altar, priest facing ad orientem, etc.)"

It is amazing how two very different liturgies could have so many similarities; even in a Low Tridentine Mass, without all the "bells and whistles" I'm sure you would still recognize so many of the externals. I've only been to one Orthodox Divine Liturgy of St John Chrystomos and did notice the elements more prominent in the Tridentine, but not as much in the NO (crossing, incense, etc.) However, it was only an accident that I was there, due to an odd situation of chapel-sharing at school, so I wasn't able to observe with my full attention. (I have seen an Eastern Catholic Divine Liturgy on the internet, but the video quality was quite poor). Both the Mass of St Pius and the Litugy of St John Chrystomos are still very different, but both gorgeous, and I think I'd prefer either to an everyday NO.

"One would imagine that the Western fathers in the 1960's stated good reasons how and why the Mass was changed. I am not sure where they are to be found."

I suppose we could go to the source...Paul VI: http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Paul06/p6missal.htm
It's an interesting little document, wherein Paul promulgated the use of the NO; he cites, among other things, the desire to correct what was seen as deviations from the "traditions of the Fathers." It is a curious little point I will have to examine further.

The post-Conciliar Popes on the liturgy has always been such a fascinating topic. I mean, how many times on FR alone have we seen rumors of the liberalization, by the Pope(s) of the use the Tridentine Mass? Paul VI spoke highly of that Missal. Benedict, as a Cardinal, said it in public on multiple occasions. JPII, of blessed memory, regularly said it in his private chapel in the Vatican.

However, later this year there is supposed to be a document coming out from BXVI about new directives for the NO. I'm not sure what it will entail but here is an interesting quote from his "Spirit of the Liturgy" (written as a Cardinal) about his idea of papal stewardship of the Mass: "The pope's authority is bound to the Tradition of faith, and that also applies to the liturgy...Even the pope can only be a humble servant of its lawful development and abiding integrity and identity." (166)

Here's an interesting article about the Pope and the liturgy, from Ignatius Press, his English-language publisher: http://www.ignatiusinsight.com/features2005/clark_benedictliturgy_apr05.asp

And, if you are so inclined, Fr Jim Tucker, keeper of the "Dappled Things" blog has a great compilation of links of items relating to the Tridentine Mass; he also has a great photo collection of all things liturgical: http://donjim.blogspot.com/2006/08/traditional-liturgy-videos-and.html


54 posted on 08/16/2006 8:20:59 AM PDT by tlRCta (St. Joseph, pray for us!)
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