DISPENSATIONALIST "CHRISTIAN" ZIONISM -- Is there now "neither Jew nor Gentile", or not?

KennethGentry.Com, "Dispensational Distortions" ^ | 2004 | Kenneth Gentry (and OP)

[xzins]

There is not a different redemptive plan for racial Jews. How can one read the bible and come to that conclusion. Very simply, John 3:16 was spoken to a Jew.

My sense, without reading up on those that you mention, is that there is a possibility of a different redemptive plan (1) After the rapture, and (2) during the Millennium.

With a different situation entailing, that is something that it would be fair to speculate on. I think it would be because of Jesus' words to Thomas: "Blessed are those who see and believe, but more blessed are those who do not see and yet believe."

Just My Humble Speculation (JMHS?)

[William Terrell]

I agree. There were several good points and arguments there. Would you like to address one?

[Buggman]

Yes He is--but for the better part of two millennia, we have persecuted the Jews and commanded them to become "uncircumcised" in the name of Jesus. Do you believe that He commanded us to persecute the Jews? To forcibly convert them, and even kill them? To force them to stop living as Jews and keeping the Torah?

I'd hope not. But that's how the visible Church (the only one the Jews could see) has presented Him. Ergo, we are corporately guilty of having presented a false image of the Messiah to the Jewish people.

Now, that trend has been reversing since the 1800s (due in no small part to the Evangelicals and Dispensationalists), but the Jews are still (justifiably) wary. Therefore, when I see a Christian publicly spewing hateful words, confirming the Jew's worst fears about we Christians (and therefore building up a wall), I publicly call them to account. That's what I'm doing here.

[Buggman]

Having fun? {!}

[P-Marlowe]

Having fun? {!}

When addressing the Court that should be: "Having Fun, YOUR HONOR?"

And yes, I am. Thank you.

You may call your next witness.

[opus86]

This is rank-and-file dispensationalism

I cannot speak for all rank-and-file dispys, but FWIW Buggman's comments in #78 regarding "all Israel" are basically what I was taught in the Pentecostal church. I believe it's also the position of the Assemblies of God, though I couldn't find a definitive statement on their website.

[Invincibly Ignorant]

Ergo, we are corporately guilty of having presented a false image of the Messiah to the Jewish people.

That's ok. We're already aware of the false image of your Messiah. :-)

[xzins]

Having Fun, YOUR HONOR...next witness

About the Bible, chapters 9-11 of Romans, is it true, OP, that the Apostle Paul says:

Romans 9-11 -

1 I speak the truth in Christ--I am not lying, my conscience confirms it in the Holy Spirit-- 2 I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, those of my own race, 4 the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. 5 Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.

6 It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." 8 In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring. 9 For this was how the promise was stated: "At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son." 10 Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. 11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad--in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls--she was told, "The older will serve the younger." 13 Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. 19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'" 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? 22 What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath--prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory-- 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

25 As he says in Hosea: "I will call them 'my people' who are not my people; and I will call her 'my loved one' who is not my loved one," 26 and, "It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,' they will be called 'sons of the living God.'" 27 Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: "Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea, only the remnant will be saved. 28 For the Lord will carry out his sentence on earth with speed and finality." 29 It is just as Isaiah said previously: "Unless the Lord Almighty had left us descendants, we would have become like Sodom, we would have been like Gomorrah."

30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the "stumbling stone." 33 As it is written: "See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."

1 Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. 2 For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. 3 Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness. 4 Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes. 5 Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: "The man who does these things will live by them." 6 But the righteousness that is by faith says: "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?'" (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 "or 'Who will descend into the deep?'" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart," that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: 9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11 As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame."

12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile--the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." 14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!" 16 But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our message?" 17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ. 18 But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did: "Their voice has gone out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world." 19 Again I ask: Did Israel not understand? First, Moses says, "I will make you envious by those who are not a nation; I will make you angry by a nation that has no understanding." 20 And Isaiah boldly says, "I was found by those who did not seek me; I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me." 21 But concerning Israel he says, "All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and obstinate people."

1 I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don't you know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah--how he appealed to God against Israel: 3 "Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me"? 4 And what was God's answer to him? "I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal." 5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace. 7 What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened, 8 as it is written: "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes so that they could not see and ears so that they could not hear, to this very day." 9 And David says: "May their table become a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a retribution for them. 10 May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see, and their backs be bent forever." 11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring! 13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. 22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree! 25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. 27 And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins." 28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you. 32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

33 Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out! 34 "Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?" 35 "Who has ever given to God, that God should repay him?" 36 For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be the glory forever! Amen.

[George W. Bush]

Supersessionism is not Catholic Doctrine. Never has been. Never will be. Your odd ideas about theology are in no way attributable to Catholic Doctrine nor are they to be found in Catholic Doctrine. You have no idea about what constitutes Catholic Doctrine. Your odd and irrational claims can not be found in any Ecuemnical Council Document, any Papal Encyclical, any Catechism, any Catholic Encyclopedia, or any Catholic Dictionary.

Here it is in Latin: Concilio de Florence, La Bulla Cantate Domino, 1442

See also MYSTICI CORPORIS CHRISTI [ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS XII] (paragraphs 29, 32)

From Wikipedia:

Supersessionism was traditionally considered by the Roman Catholic Church to be its ex cathedra irreformable position on the relationship with post-Messianic Judaism. The Council of Florence of the 15th century solemnly defined, that "(...) and Jews (...) are damned to the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels" if they consciously and obstinately refuse to embrace the Catholic Christian Faith.^[2] The only logical explanation for this teaching then was, that Judaism of the Old Testament had been replaced by or rather transferred to the New Testament with its own law and sacred rites. In fact this is what Popes taught throughout all centuries. Pope Pius XII also re-affirmed this doctrine in his encyclical Mystici Corporis (June 29th, 1943), when he authoritatively taught, that "the New Testament took the place of the Old Law which had been abolished" and that "on the gibbet of His death Jesus made void the Law with its decrees fastened the handwriting of the Old Testament to the Cross, establishing the New Testament in His blood shed for the whole human race. 'To such an extent, then,' says St. Leo the Great, speaking of the Cross of our Lord, 'was there effected a transfer from the Law to the Gospel, from the Synagogue to the Church, from the many sacrifices to one Victim, that, as Our Lord expired, that mystical veil which shut off the innermost part of the temple and its sacred secret was rent violently from top to bottom.'" Pope Pius XII also clearly condemned the two-path approach dividing Gentile and Jew once again as in the Old Testament, when he taught, that "Christ, by His blood, made the Jews and Gentiles one 'breaking down the middle wall of partition...in His flesh' by which the two peoples were divided; and that He made the Old Law void 'that He might make the two in Himself into one new man,' that is, the Church, and might reconcile both to God in one Body by the Cross." Hereby Pope Pacelli doctrinally affirmed, that the Church was from the beginning established for the salvation of all people, both Jews and gentiles, thereby excluding the possibility of a two-path-approach for all Roman Catholics.^[3]

In the 20th century, certain hierarchs of the Roman Catholic Church issued a number of theological position papers which appear to reject this concept outright, and affirm that the Torah is a valid path for Jews and Jewish proselytes to achieve salvation, that their covenant with God is still valid, and that the Jews of modern times are a direct unbroken continuation of the ancient Children of Israel. This view is not accepted by all Roman Catholic theologians, and it is rejected outright by traditional Catholics though it has been reaffirmed several times by various contemporary Catholic hierarchs. The Catholic Church no longer proclaims - according to some - Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus, supposedly subtly shifting, in the teaching of Pope John Paul II, to the axiom "Sine Ecclesia Nulla Salus"- that is, that although the presence of the Church in the world makes salvation possible, membership of the Church is by no means required in order for individuals to be saved. The Catholic Church however recently affirmed the necessity of Jesus for salvation in the declaration Dominus Iesus. However, although salvation comes from Christ, the teaching of the Church expressed in the Vatican II document Lumen Gentium is that those "who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience" may by some extraordinary way achieve salvation - the conditions for which however are traditionally believed to be very strict and implying isolation and invincible ignorance.

Furthermore, another Vatican II document Nostra Aetate, as well as the repeated comments of Pope John Paul II, according to some clearly repudiate supersessionism by insisting that the divine covenant which constitutes Israel as a nation remains permanently in force. However at the time of its approbation at Vatican II it was not understood as dispensationalist at all, mainly as affirming that the Old Testament's promise was never taken away, but was "perfected" in the New Testament religion and thus, that the Old Testemant had been transferred into the New Testament, while being abolished and void of salvification if taken only by itself.

Despite some universalist backtracking by JP II in his last years of decline and probably due to the influence of the liberal theological element in Rome, the position of Rome has been and remains officially that of supersessionism.

I suppose you have to decide if you believe one pope or another. But the official infallible teaching has not been altered despite some theological politicking and the usual double-talk in the last years of a pope who was obviously not in his mental prime.

You might want to review where the liberal RC theologians are going with this thinking:

Boston College: A Sacred Obligation: Rethinking Christian Faith In Relation To Judaism And The Jewish People.

Notice how they "renounce" a belief you say that Catholics have never held.

Look at the headings:

• 1. God’s covenant with the Jewish people endures forever.
  
  For centuries Christians claimed that their covenant with God replaced or superseded the Jewish covenant. We renounce this claim. We believe that God does not revoke divine promises. We affirm that God is in covenant with both Jews and Christians. Tragically, the entrenched theology of supersessionism continues to influence Christian faith, worship, and practice, even though it has been repudiated by many Christian denominations and many Christians no longer accept it. Our recognition of the abiding validity of Judaism has implications for all aspects of Christian life.
• Judaism is a living faith, enriched by many centuries of development.
• The Bible both connects and separates Jews and Christians.
• Christians should not target Jews for conversion.

It's so unfortunate that Jesus and His disciples and the entire early church were so unaware of the vicious antisemitism involved in converting Jews to Christianity. I guess the whole thing you RCs have going with Peter, a converted Jew, was a mistake because he didn't need to convert at all to be in covenant with God.

Sounds like Catholics are getting closer to an open universalism. Perhaps Benedict can issue a new encyclical "Allo Doggus Goeth Unto Heavenus".

[Buggman]

Oh, I wouldn't call that a universal opinion anymore. Anyway, I look forward to getting into that with you someday. God bless. :-)

[blue-duncan]

May I please be excused from these court proceedings? I just looked at this reply from xzins and I have to have my eyes checked.

[George W. Bush]

And that's why I'm being so hard on OP. I want the Jewish people to know their Messiah-King. I am trying to tear down a wall that we have built up by our lack of love, and OP is putting the stones right back in place by his unbridled tongue. Putting a wall, any wall, between a person and the Messiah is not an act of Christian love, but the ultimate act of hatred.

We see the full-blown Arminianism of your position here. Obviously, God has no significant role in salvation and is sprinkling plenty of prevenient grace on non-Christian Jews for you to accomplish the work of their salvation if only mean-spirited persons would stop saying naughty things.

You are actually attributing to OPie a position more powerful than that of Satan. According to you, OPie is capable of causing the eternal damnation of any Jews who are offended by fundamental Christian doctrine.

I begin to suspect you don't know the God of the Bible if this constitutes your opinion of Him and His determination to save His Elect from all nations.

And I hope that he repents of that soon, for one who hates his neighbor (defined by Yeshua to even include ancestral enemies, as Jews were to Samaritans) has broken every commandment all at once, and I don't want to see my old friend fall under judgment, even temporal judgment.

I'd bet you're a real albatross around the necks of your Jewish Christian friends. You may disobey scripture and pretend that there is something wrong with the plain teachings of Christ and His disciples but don't expect us to kneel at your little throne while you're pontificating on the subject. And, while it undoubtedly makes you feel extra special and extra holy, dribbling Hebraisms is just annoying. If you want to be consistent, I suggest you post all your posts here in Hebrew. Or stick to English.

We've faithfully preserved the NT--and because of that preservation, many Jews today are starting to see Yeshua as one of them!

As opposed to those evil stupid Jews in the New Testament like Paul and Peter and who actually wrote it and taught, like Jesus, doctrines extremely offensive to most Jews of their time and ever since? And why did this preservation of which you speak so glowingly take 1800 years for some Messianic Jews to actually believe? Certainly, they knew and read Christian scripture during the period.

[George W. Bush]

May I please be excused from these court proceedings? I just looked at this reply from xzins and I have to have my eyes checked.

I had to race to the window to see if the clouds were parting to reveal a heavenly Figure returning in glory.

So far, so good. We'll have to see where xzins is going with this one.

[Alex Murphy]

So far, so good. We'll have to see where xzins is going with this one.

YOUTH: He's gone! He's been taken up!
GIRL: Hhhh!
FOLLOWERS: For He's been taken up!
ARTHUR: No, there He is. Over there.
FOLLOWERS: Oh, yeah. Master! Master!...

[Invincibly Ignorant]

Oh, I wouldn't call that a universal opinion anymore. Anyway, I look forward to getting into that with you someday. God bless. :-)

Oh I'd say its real close.

[Corin Stormhands]

We see the full-blown Arminianism of your position here.

You say that like itsuhbadthing...

Then after that you say that like you don't understand it, or mispresent it, or somethin'.

I'm just sayin' is all.

[P-Marlowe]

Since you are the clerk of the court, I believe this would be a workers compensation injury. You will need to call down to personnel and arrange to have a temporary clerk brought in and then you are free to go.

[Corin Stormhands]

Your honor, is the positin of court jester still available?

[xzins]

I think his release should be with prejudice, Yer honor.

And with midjudice, ajudice, and postjudice, too, for that matter!

[blue-duncan]

Will you be representing me in my meritorious WC claim or defending the repressive, money-grubbing, power hungry, judicial dictatorship?