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DISPENSATIONALIST "CHRISTIAN" ZIONISM -- Is there now "neither Jew nor Gentile", or not?
KennethGentry.Com, "Dispensational Distortions" ^ | 2004 | Kenneth Gentry (and OP)

Posted on 08/10/2006 12:22:56 PM PDT by OrthodoxPresbyterian

A Young Fool encounters Foolishness

Once upon a time, I was but a wee child in Reformed Theology, taking my first baby-steps into the beautiful Cathedral of Calvinism as a young Debater for Jerry Falwell's world-beating Liberty Debate Team (Our Creed: "Defeat Harvard. Defeat Navy. Defeat American Catholic. Defeat everyone. Crush them all, every time, no exceptions. Win every single National Championship, every year.... because as long as we Calvinists keep winning, Jerry won't excommunicate us for being Calvinists!!".)

Since a Debater is always expected to be able to immediately argue either side of any given question, I spent a lot of time in the local used book-store picking up various books on philosophy and theology and politics and economics... anything I could get my dirt-poor hands on for $2 or $3 dollars a copy. Anything to familiarize myself with multiple intellectual perspectives and multiple modes of argumentation.

Now, in the course of my researches, I happened across a little book entitled War Cycles, Peace Cycles by Richard Kelly Hoskins of Lynchburg, Virginia, regarding the short and long-term economic effects of Monetary Expansions and Contractions in the context of fractional-reserve lending. Hoskins was by no means an uneducated fellow (a capable Financial Advisor and Econometricist, some of his works are still occasionally cited today), but I was singularly disturbed by several passages in which he seemed to suggest a Racial component to Fractional-Reserve Lending (which he called "the Babylon System") versus his contrary suggestions for Joint-Venture Lending.

One passage which stood out in my mind read as follows:

The further I read, the more it was apparent to me that Hoskins regarded "Israel" as The White Race, the Adamic Race descended through Abraham, and that all Non-Whites were considered to him to be zuwr "strangers": Pagans at worst, "Samaritan" Christians at best... but never "Israel".

And so, being the young fool that I was, I did what any young fool would do... I looked Dick Hoskins up in the Lynchburg, Virginia phone book, and called him at his house.

I asked him what he would make of my spiritual position -- a Confessing Christian by Faith, mostly Prussian German by Ethnicity, but with a little 1/16 smidgen of Sioux Nation mixed in 3 or 4 generations back on my mother's side.

Hoskins informed me, quite cordially and without any rancor whatsoever, that God considered me to be a mixed-breed Bastard and that "A Bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the LORD." (Deuteronomy 23:2) He advised me to marry "one of my own kind".

Well, I decided at that point (even before I knew him to be the godfather of the "Phinehas Priesthood", the most violent expression of the Christian Identity movement) that even if he was a good money-runner, Dick Hoskins' theology was a barrel full of wet, smelly, foolish Scheißdreck, with which I would have no truck whatsoever. The Christian Creed is this: "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." (Galatians 3:28, KJV).

Unfortunately, however, "Christian Identity" (derived not from pagan Nazism but rather from its bastard godfather, British Israelism) is not the only theology which Racially divides the Body of Christ into Jew and Gentile, "Israel" and "Not-Israel", Blood and Blood-lines.

Dispensational Zionist Foolishness

The future dispensational kingdom involves a racial prejudice favoring the Jews above even saved Gentiles during the millennium. As such it re-introduces the distinction between Jew and Gentile and replaces Faith with Race as a basis for divine favor. Consider the following citations from leading dispensationalists: (DISPENSATIONAL DISTORTIONS PART TWO, Redemptive History Distortions ~~ Kenneth L. Gentry, Jr., Th.D.)

However, with the establishment of the New Testament phase of the Church, the distinction between Jew and Gentile has been abolished. This was the whole point of Peter's vision of the sheet filled with unclean animals in Acts 10: "What God has called clean, let no man call unclean." Thus, there is no separate Jewish program exalting them over saved Gentiles. THE CHURCH, which includes Jew and Gentile in one body, is the fruition and culmination of God's promises to the Jews. In evidence of this, we should note that Christians are called by distinctively Jewish names in the New Testament. "He is a Jew, which is one inwardly" (Rom. 2:29). Christians are called "the circumcision" (Phil. 3:3), "the children" and "the seed of Abraham" (Gal. 3:7, 29), the "Jerusalem which is above" and the "children of the promise" (Gal. 4:24-29). In fact, Christians compose "the Israel of God" for we are a "new creature" regarding which "circumcision availeth nothing" (Gal. 6:16).

Comparing Foolishness with Foolishness

In closing, I ask only (according to the Hebrew logical-interpretive method of "how much the more?")... if the heretical British-Israel/Christian-Identity Racialists pervert True Christianity by dividing the People of God along Racial lines, then how much the more do Dispensationalists also pervert the Word of God and divide the People of God along equally Racialist lines?

Consider the following:



Those aren't Quotations from Richard Kelly Hoskins... granted, they may sound like Christian Identity quotations, but they aren't.

These are nothing less than direct quotations from the leading lights of Dispensationalism in America -- Ryrie, Pentecost, Walvoord, Hoyt, Hunt, Thomas Ice. (I could've quoted Hagee, I suppose, but the man is absolutely freakin' nutbar).

All that I did was to replace "Israel" with "The White Race", and replace "Gentiles" with "Non-Whites".
Does Dispensationalist "theology" destroy the Racial equality of the Body of Christ? What you see is what you get.

God Damn all Racial Theology.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Ecumenism; Evangelical Christian; General Discusssion; History; Judaism; Mainline Protestant; Orthodox Christian; Religion & Culture
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Okay, people, this is a discussion of Historic Christian Theology in the context of Ethnic differences. "Christian Identity" ascends from British-Israelism, NOT Nazism -- and according to Godwin's Law, the first Freeper to bring "Nazism" into the debate, automatically loses.

So let's discuss the Article as written, and avoid the Gestapo and Counter-Gestapo accusations.

1 posted on 08/10/2006 12:22:58 PM PDT by OrthodoxPresbyterian
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To: George W. Bush; Dr. Eckleburg; jude24

Ping to several folks who requested this Article.


2 posted on 08/10/2006 12:24:20 PM PDT by OrthodoxPresbyterian (We are Unworthy Servants; We have only done Our Duty -- Luke 17:10)
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To: xzins; P-Marlowe; ShadowAce

Ping for a chance to explain my point of view.


3 posted on 08/10/2006 12:25:05 PM PDT by OrthodoxPresbyterian (We are Unworthy Servants; We have only done Our Duty -- Luke 17:10)
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To: OrthodoxPresbyterian
I really don't think the issue is resolved by appeal to Scripture, and is not a primary doctrine (that must be believed for Salvation) but as a Christian I support Israel because the 'promise' to you has not been rescinded. that means all Jews in Israel or otherwise.
4 posted on 08/10/2006 12:29:23 PM PDT by vimto (Blighty Awaken!)
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To: Buggman; George W. Bush
Does Dispensationalist "theology" destroy the Racial equality of the Body of Christ? What you see is what you get.

God wrote the New Testament in Greek -- NOT Hebrew.

Enough foolish "How much Hebrew can I spout off" Judaizing.
Get in touch with God's design.

Best, OP

5 posted on 08/10/2006 12:30:43 PM PDT by OrthodoxPresbyterian (We are Unworthy Servants; We have only done Our Duty -- Luke 17:10)
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To: OrthodoxPresbyterian

OrthodoxPresbyterian, do you wear women's underwear?


6 posted on 08/10/2006 12:40:26 PM PDT by PetroniusMaximus
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To: OrthodoxPresbyterian
Ah, another argumentum ad hominem in the works, I see. I'll pass--I had more than enough of that from you in the last thread.

Ping me when you have remembered how to debate properly, OP. Until then, my friend, we are best off just swapping RPG in-jokes.

7 posted on 08/10/2006 12:41:15 PM PDT by Buggman (www.brit-chadasha.blogspot.com)
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To: OrthodoxPresbyterian; xzins; blue-duncan; Buggman
All that I did was to replace "Israel" with "The White Race", and replace "Gentiles" with "Non-Whites".

You have a problem as the Children of Israel in the old testament were clearly not white to begin with and many were obviously of African descent. Moses married and Ethiopian woman, so the descendants of Moses are not white.

Your analogy not only doesn't work, it is clearly offensive as is your last sentence.

The fact is that God showed favor to the Jewish nation and to the genetic descendants of Abraham, Issac and Jacob. If you can't deal with that fact, then that is your problem. I see no problem with God having a "chosen" people and that God chose them for his purposes and for his own reasons.

The FACT that God chose the descendants of Israel to give blessings to has nothing to do with The White Race.

You lose.

BTW, IBTZ

8 posted on 08/10/2006 12:42:05 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (((172 * 3.141592653589793238462) / 180) * 10 = 30.0196631)
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To: P-Marlowe; OrthodoxPresbyterian; Buggman; blue-duncan
The fact is that God showed favor to the Jewish nation and to the genetic descendants of Abraham, Issac and Jacob. If you can't deal with that fact, then that is your problem. I see no problem with God having a "chosen" people and that God chose them for his purposes and for his own reasons.

Why is it that when it comes to practical application, the purist calvinists have more trouble with "Jacob have I loved and Esau have I hated" than do us double-predestinarian, quarter-pelagian, calvinists in the tradition of Arminius?

9 posted on 08/10/2006 12:45:49 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! Supporting the troops means praying for them to WIN!)
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To: OrthodoxPresbyterian
Spurgeon may be right many times but I don't think John the Baptist spoke Greek!
10 posted on 08/10/2006 12:48:02 PM PDT by vimto (Blighty Awaken!)
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To: vimto; George W. Bush; xzins; Buggman; jude24; Dr. Eckleburg
I really don't think the issue is resolved by appeal to Scripture, and is not a primary doctrine (that must be believed for Salvation) but as a Christian I support Israel because the 'promise' to you has not been rescinded. that means all Jews in Israel or otherwise.

NO. You've got the whole thing wrong.

As a Christian, you ARE Israel.

While I support the modern Secular, Socialist, Christ-Denying "State of Israel" on International Law grounds (anyone has a Right to Self-Defense), the teaching of the Apostle Saint Paul is that the Israel of God is... THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST.

God does not promise blessings to ANYONE for giving "extra-credit kudo points" to a Secular, Socialist State which is predicated upon the Rejection of His Beloved Son.

God never said, "I will reward you if you pledge your total support to a bunch of Christ-rejecting Pharisees who absolutely Hate My only-begotten Son. Yeah, that's really 'My Israel'... sure it is".

If anything, given how much God the Father loves His Son and how much the modern "State of Israel" hates Jesus... you might wanna stay outta the way of His Wrath.

Best, OP

11 posted on 08/10/2006 12:48:17 PM PDT by OrthodoxPresbyterian (We are Unworthy Servants; We have only done Our Duty -- Luke 17:10)
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To: OrthodoxPresbyterian
Got to give it to you you are clear in what you believe.

To obtain salvation you must be a Christian. But do you not expect to see more Jews saved n Christ as the end times come? Our political arrangement in God's eyes, even the best of them, are all folly.
12 posted on 08/10/2006 12:52:32 PM PDT by vimto (Blighty Awaken!)
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To: OrthodoxPresbyterian; PetroniusMaximus

Ping to my serious question....

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1681341/posts?page=6#6


13 posted on 08/10/2006 12:56:45 PM PDT by PetroniusMaximus
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To: Buggman; jude24; P-Marlowe; xzins; Dr. Eckleburg
Ah, another argumentum ad hominem in the works, I see. I'll pass--I had more than enough of that from you in the last thread. Ping me when you have remembered how to debate properly, OP. Until then, my friend, we are best off just swapping RPG in-jokes.

Oh, good grief. At least learn the proper descriptions of the various Classical Logic Fallacies before you try them out in Debate... please.

An Argumentum ad hominem (an "Attack upon the Person") would be if I, for example, called you "a scared little Dispy heretic who's unwilling to face the realities of your own theology", and therefore claimed that nothing that you say has any value.

That would be a Logical Fallacy, of course. But I would never do such a thing.


The fact is, I am obeying the Logical forms of Analogical Reasoning exactly -- I have changed none of the Terms of the Equation, only the Variables.

And if a Given Statement would be Anti-Christian Racialist for a Christian Identity preacher to claim -- then it is equally Anti-Christian Racialist for a Dispensationalist preacher to claim (substituting only the Racial Group in question).


I have observed all normal Rules of Logic.

I call the Lawyers (Marlowe and Jude) to find one... even one Logical Error in my Analogical Equivalence (Since I have left the Terms of the Equation the same, and the exchanged Variables are each respective "Ethnic Groups", my Analogic Reasoning is without Flaw).

It is by will alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the juice of Sapho that thoughts acquire speed, the lips acquire stains, the stains become a warning. It is by will alone I set my mind in motion.

14 posted on 08/10/2006 1:08:48 PM PDT by OrthodoxPresbyterian (We are Unworthy Servants; We have only done Our Duty -- Luke 17:10)
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To: vimto; MarMema; Dr. Eckleburg
To obtain salvation you must be a Christian. But do you not expect to see more Jews saved n Christ as the end times come?

I dunno.

I don't expect a damn thing other than what we pray for.


Every prayer changes the entire universe. Our every prayer, each prayer, actually changes history, the way God created the world, and all else. God is outside time. God is not "waiting up there" for our prayer, and then He acts. All has already occurred in God. ~~ Albert S. Rossi, "Prayer is not Optional", Saint Vladimir's Orthodox Theological Seminary


What I do know is that we Westerners seem deeply concerned about the Land of the Jews; whereas I think we should all (certainly the Eastern Orthodox would agree!) care a little bit more for Christ's sake about the Souls of the Jews.


O Lord, my God, help me to see the insignificance of everything earthly, the majesty of the heavenly, the shortness of time and the duration of eternity. Cause that I would prepare myself for death, that I would fear Thy judgment, that I would escape Hades and that I would enter into the paradise of eternal blessedness; so that all Thy saints and Thine angels might rejoice over my salvation, and glorify Thy name, of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Amen. ~~ AN ATHONITE PRAYER

best, OP

15 posted on 08/10/2006 1:26:58 PM PDT by OrthodoxPresbyterian (We are Unworthy Servants; We have only done Our Duty -- Luke 17:10)
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To: PetroniusMaximus
Oh. You want me to pay attention to you.

Okay. Thou art noticed. Rejoice, and feel fulfilled.

16 posted on 08/10/2006 1:29:23 PM PDT by OrthodoxPresbyterian (We are Unworthy Servants; We have only done Our Duty -- Luke 17:10)
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To: OrthodoxPresbyterian

"Oh. You want me to pay attention to you."

OK. Thanks for engaging. For the sake of the argument, let's assume that you do not wear women's underwear.

Why not?

Doesn't the passage you are referring to also clearly state that in Christ there is neither male or female???

Yet the distinction clearly remains - even in the NT itself!!!

In the same way, the distinction between Jew and Greek remains - even in the NT.

You absolute identification of "Israel" as the Church is dead wrong.


17 posted on 08/10/2006 1:33:50 PM PDT by PetroniusMaximus
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To: P-Marlowe; jude24; xzins; Buggman; George W. Bush; Dr. Eckleburg
You have a problem as the Children of Israel in the old testament were clearly not white to begin with and many were obviously of African descent. Moses married and Ethiopian woman, so the descendants of Moses are not white.

Actually, British-Israelites will claim that the original inhabitants of Egypt and upper Ethiopia were... Whites.

Now you're just debating archaeology and Genesis-interpretation.

However, in even addressing the question, you've already admitted that the British-Israelite/Christian-Identity folks are Racially-dividing the Body of Christ along Ethnic lines. As Winston Churchill reputedly said to the Lady of Ill Repute -- we've already established where you're coming from, now we're just arguing about Price (or in this case, "Which Ethnicity", which Racial Division... which Sundering of the Body of Christ do you prefer?).

18 posted on 08/10/2006 1:40:11 PM PDT by OrthodoxPresbyterian (We are Unworthy Servants; We have only done Our Duty -- Luke 17:10)
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To: OrthodoxPresbyterian

Ping to read later.


19 posted on 08/10/2006 1:43:21 PM PDT by Alex Murphy (Colossians 2:6)
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To: PetroniusMaximus
Re your #6 and #17

Stop stealing my posting style :P

20 posted on 08/10/2006 1:47:41 PM PDT by Alex Murphy (Colossians 2:6)
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To: PetroniusMaximus; jude24; George W. Bush; Dr. Eckleburg
OK. Thanks for engaging. For the sake of the argument, let's assume that you do not wear women's underwear. Why not? Doesn't the passage you are referring to also clearly state that in Christ there is neither male or female???

Because, often as not, I don't even wear underwear. Unfortunately, most of us Calvinists are so blessed, we have to go commando. It's just one of our burdens.


(In other words, please tell me you're not serious... are you genuinely unable to discern that the Apostle was speaking of our equal Kingdom Standing before God? See, as a Protestant, I like to believe that the average reader can read the Bible for himself -- please don't tell me that you think this passage really concerns underwear, and not our Jew-Gentile Kingdom Equivalence.)

21 posted on 08/10/2006 1:52:03 PM PDT by OrthodoxPresbyterian (We are Unworthy Servants; We have only done Our Duty -- Luke 17:10)
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To: OrthodoxPresbyterian; jude24; P-Marlowe; xzins; Dr. Eckleburg; topcat54; HarleyD
My friend, in the last thread, I spent as much or more word-count pointing out your personal attacks as I did responding to anything of substance. If you want to have a proper debate without the personal attacks, without the crowing, without the poisoning of the well, and without the vulgarity you demonstrated in the last thread, I'd be glad to. But your entry point into this one suggests otherwise, and I'd candidly rather debate TC--who, despite not being of your caliber, is far more civil than you've been of late--or HarleyD, who is consistantly the most civil Calvinist on this forum, as well as being incredibly articulate and challenging.

You can start by publicly apologizing for calling the Jews "God-hating" in the previous thread, and swearing to abandon such rhetoric in all future discussions--the fact that an ad hominem is not said to your opponent directly does not make it any less a personal attack.

If you're not Christian enough to repent of an obvious slander, then I have no interest in debating with you. Period. Have a nice day.

22 posted on 08/10/2006 1:54:43 PM PDT by Buggman (www.brit-chadasha.blogspot.com)
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To: Alex Murphy

Nice tagline. ;^)


23 posted on 08/10/2006 1:59:37 PM PDT by tioga
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To: Buggman
...the fact that an ad hominem is not said to your opponent directly does not make it any less a personal attack.

Good advice. I would hope the Neeners would heed it as well.

24 posted on 08/10/2006 2:00:29 PM PDT by Alex Murphy (Colossians 2:6)
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To: OrthodoxPresbyterian; xzins; blue-duncan; Buggman
Actually, British-Israelites will claim that the original inhabitants of Egypt and upper Ethiopia were... Whites.... we've already established where you're coming from, now we're just arguing about Price

Has any British Israelite ever posted a single post at Free Republic? I've never seen one. Yet you accuse those who believe that God has shown favor to the genetic descendants of Israel as the functional equivalent of White Power Replacement Theology Nazi's.

Frankly your point here, if it isn't to call everyone who disagrees with you a Nazi, is lost on me.

Do you find fault that God said "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated?" Did not God curse the biological line of Esau?

What the heck is your point anyway?

25 posted on 08/10/2006 2:03:05 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (((172 * 3.141592653589793238462) / 180) * 10 = 30.0196631)
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To: Alex Murphy

We certainly try. Did you have a specific complaint?


26 posted on 08/10/2006 2:03:09 PM PDT by Buggman (www.brit-chadasha.blogspot.com)
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To: Alex Murphy; Buggman; P-Marlowe
Good advice. I would hope the Neeners would heed it as well.

Too bad we don't keep a ping list.

27 posted on 08/10/2006 2:04:21 PM PDT by Corin Stormhands (HHD: Join the Hobbit Hole Troop Support - http://freeper.the-hobbit-hole.net/)
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To: Buggman
Did you have a specific complaint?

None that haven't already been submitted, and ignored, on other threads.

28 posted on 08/10/2006 2:06:11 PM PDT by Alex Murphy (Colossians 2:6)
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To: OrthodoxPresbyterian
"Because, often as not, I don't even wear underwear."

Now THAT is something I did not want to know.


"In other words, please tell me you're not serious... are you genuinely unable to discern that the Apostle was speaking of our equal Kingdom Standing before God?"

Well there you go! "equal Kingdom Standing" - i.e. equality implies some form of division or distinction. The distinction between "Israel" and "Church" is a real distinction. One has not subsumed the other.

Here again, you absolute identification of "Israel" as the Church is dead wrong - as wrong as identifying all females as "male" based on the above misinterpretation of Scripture.

Israel, the Jews, the Hebrew people, literal, physical Jerusalem has a distinct and future role in prophetic events. Any honest reading of the NT (i.e. one not clouded by unnecessary theological presuppositions) shows that.
29 posted on 08/10/2006 2:07:33 PM PDT by PetroniusMaximus
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To: Alex Murphy

Well, if you catch me in one, do point it out to me. I try to stay away from attacking people while attacking ideas, but I won't say that I've never slipped.


30 posted on 08/10/2006 2:13:01 PM PDT by Buggman (www.brit-chadasha.blogspot.com)
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For the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image, and without an ephod, and [without] teraphim:

Afterward shall the children of Israel return, {{WE ARE RIGHT HERE TODAY}} and seek the LORD their God, and David their king; and shall fear the LORD and his goodness in the latter days.


Hosea 3:4-5

31 posted on 08/10/2006 2:20:13 PM PDT by rabid liberty (pray for the peace of Jerusalem -- psa. 122:6)
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To: xzins

***Why is it that when it comes to practical application, the purist calvinists have more trouble with "Jacob have I loved and Esau have I hated"***

I always thought it was a reference to the nation or land area.
Jacob (Israel) I have loved and Esau (Edom) I have hated.


32 posted on 08/10/2006 2:28:15 PM PDT by Ruy Dias de Bivar (Democrats have never found a fight they couldn't run from...Ann Coulter)
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To: Buggman
Well, if you catch me in one, do point it out to me. I try to stay away from attacking people while attacking ideas, but I won't say that I've never slipped.

Ditto for me, and thanks for watching my back!

33 posted on 08/10/2006 2:34:44 PM PDT by Alex Murphy (Colossians 2:6)
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To: OrthodoxPresbyterian; Frumanchu; Buggman
Does Dispensationalist "theology" destroy the Racial equality of the Body of Christ?

In my search for decent articles on the four views of the Millennium (many thanks to Frumanchu for offering to format and post the best candidate), the most consistent element that differentiated Dispensationalism from all other eschatological systems was that in Dispensationalism, God has a different redemptive plan for racial Jews - unique, separate and even superior to any other redemptive plan offered to any other racial group (Greeks, gentiles, etc). Some dispensationalists (Hal Lindsey for one) have even gone so far as to claim that fellow Christians are anti-semites for holding to other eschatological views.

Incredulously, we're the ones who are anti-semitic, for not supporting a racially-divided, two-redemptive-plan dispensational view of history, one that discounts the Body of Christ - His Church - as being merely a "great parenthesis" in God's prophetic timetable for man.

Sorry Buggman, but I have to side with OP on this one. I think he makes a good point with this thread. No offense meant, hopefully none taken.

34 posted on 08/10/2006 2:37:21 PM PDT by Alex Murphy (Colossians 2:6)
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To: Buggman; xzins; jude24; George W. Bush; Dr. Eckleburg; P-Marlowe
My friend, in the last thread, I spent as much or more word-count pointing out your personal attacks as I did responding to anything of substance.

In the "Last Thread", I didn't even get a chance to respond further before the Thread got Pulled on the basis of some Nazi-Godwin's Law name-calling for which I never offered my support on the first place (as I said in the Article prefacing this thread, I don't think that Dispys are Nazis -- I think it is absurd even to suggest such a thing. What I am SAYING (and what I have been trying to say), is that it is Biblically-Unlawful according to the New Testament for Dispys to Racially-Divide the People of God.

If you want to have a proper debate without the personal attacks, without the crowing, without the poisoning of the well, and without the vulgarity you demonstrated in the last thread, I'd be glad to. But your entry point into this one suggests otherwise, and I'd candidly rather debate TC--who, despite not being of your caliber, is far more civil than you've been of late--or HarleyD, who is consistantly the most civil Calvinist on this forum, as well as being incredibly articulate and challenging.

My "Entry Point" onto this thread was simply posting the Article... I did not accuse you of making "Ad Hominem" Arguments or not knowing how to debate. All that I did in response was point out that you had egregiously mis-defined one of the Classical Fallacies, for Debate purposes. Admittedly, my response to you was intentionally caustic; you attempted to apply the Rhetoric of Debate against me without proper command of the Logic. I dislike that approach, and so I responded with guns blazing -- and for that I apologize.

For myself, I have absolutely no objection whatsoever to a completely impartial and impersonal analysis of the contentions which I have raised in the above Article -- IF certain statements would Racially-Divide the Body of Christ if spoken by Christian Identity preachers, then how much the more do they Racially-Divide the Body of Christ if spoken by Dispensationalists? As I have said, having left the Terms of the Equation the Same, changing only the "Ethnic Group" Variables in question, I believe that my Analogic Reasoning is without Flaw.

You can start by publicly apologizing for calling the Jews "God-hating" in the previous thread, and swearing to abandon such rhetoric in all future discussions--the fact that an ad hominem is not said to your opponent directly does not make it any less a personal attack. If you're not Christian enough to repent of an obvious slander, then I have no interest in debating with you. Period. Have a nice day.

You're not Jewish, Bugg.

So how is it "ad hominem" against you at all if I accuse Christ-Rejecting Jews of Hating God?

The Greek (not Hebrew) New Testament, which was written by God our Father in Greek (not Hebrew), teaches us in Greek (not Hebrew) "But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in Their Law, They Hated Me without a Cause." (John 15:25)

Jesus IS God.

If there is one thing I know about you, Buggman -- besides the fact that we both know what "standard 40-Point Disad Limit in GURPS" means -- it is this: you will always, honestly, and without reservation submit yourself and your own beliefs to the Bar of Scripture.

As will I.

If I have "committed an obvious slander", against you, against the Jews, whatever... then I will Repent. BUT FIRST -- if you demand a Public Apology on the basis of "calling the Jews 'God-hating' in the previous thread, and swearing to abandon such rhetoric in all future discussions"...

Then Prove it to me. From Scripture. The one Standard, Calvinist or Arminian or whatever, that we both terrifyingly Respect.

Show me clearly, from Scripture, that Christ-Rejecting Jews do not HATE GOD.

Show me that, and you shall have whatever Apology you seek from me.

But Scripture first.

Best, OP

35 posted on 08/10/2006 2:39:55 PM PDT by OrthodoxPresbyterian (We are Unworthy Servants; We have only done Our Duty -- Luke 17:10)
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To: OrthodoxPresbyterian

***All that I did was to replace "Israel" with "The White Race", and replace "Gentiles" with "Non-Whites".
Does Dispensationalist "theology" destroy the Racial equality of the Body of Christ? What you see is what you get.***

Does this negate the words..
There is neither Jew nor Greek, Bond nor free, but all are ONE in Christ Jesus.

If so how many other verses get negated?


36 posted on 08/10/2006 2:42:17 PM PDT by Ruy Dias de Bivar (Democrats have never found a fight they couldn't run from...Ann Coulter)
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To: Alex Murphy
. . . the most consistent element that differentiated Dispensationalism from all other eschatological systems was that in Dispensationalism, God has a different redemptive plan for racial Jews - unique, separate and even superior to any other redemptive plan offered to any other racial group (Greeks, gentiles, etc)

The wording on that is a bit vague: In what way do you perceive Dispensationalism presenting "a different redemptive plan for racial Jews"?

37 posted on 08/10/2006 2:43:26 PM PDT by Buggman (www.brit-chadasha.blogspot.com)
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To: PetroniusMaximus; Dr. Eckleburg; jude24; xzins; P-Marlowe
Well there you go! "equal Kingdom Standing" - i.e. equality implies some form of division or distinction.

Um, no. For example, 1=1... no division or distinction.

Maybe I should turn you onto some of Pastor Steve Schlissel's sermons from "Messiah's Congregation", NYC -- did it ever occur to any of you "Israel-uber-alles" folks that Converted Orthodox Jews might like the idea of simply doing their part towards the Irresistible Advance of Christ's Heavenly Kingdom?

Oh, never mind.... it's a Calvinist thang, you wouldn't understand.

38 posted on 08/10/2006 2:49:28 PM PDT by OrthodoxPresbyterian (We are Unworthy Servants; We have only done Our Duty -- Luke 17:10)
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To: OrthodoxPresbyterian
OP: Show me clearly, from Scripture, that Christ-Rejecting Jews do not HATE GOD.

Is this not true of all people who are not Christians? Why single out one group for the label?

39 posted on 08/10/2006 2:50:26 PM PDT by rabid liberty (pray for the peace of Jerusalem -- psa. 122:6)
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To: P-Marlowe; jude24; George W. Bush; Dr. Eckleburg; Buggman; xzins
Has any British Israelite ever posted a single post at Free Republic? I've never seen one. Yet you accuse those who believe that God has shown favor to the genetic descendants of Israel as the functional equivalent of White Power Replacement Theology Nazi's. Frankly your point here, if it isn't to call everyone who disagrees with you a Nazi, is lost on me. Do you find fault that God said "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated?" Did not God curse the biological line of Esau? What the heck is your point anyway?

My Point is that Galatians 3:28 should be taken as an ABSOLUTE LAW of Biblical interpretation, and on that basis ALL Racially-Divisive Theologies of Christianity should be rejected out of hand.

British-Israelism, Christian Identity, Dispensationalism, doesn't matter -- DO NOT PASS GO, Do not Collect Tithes and Offerings from the Faithful.

Neither Jew nor Gentile. Period. End of Story.
May GOD DAMN all Racially-Divisive "Christian" theologies.

40 posted on 08/10/2006 3:02:44 PM PDT by OrthodoxPresbyterian (We are Unworthy Servants; We have only done Our Duty -- Luke 17:10)
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To: rabid liberty; OrthodoxPresbyterian; Buggman
Is this not true of all people who are not Christians? Why single out one group for the label?

In general, I'd agree with you that no one group should be singled out based on genetics. But in this case, it's because that same group is already singled out by the opposition and granted a "free pass", redemptively and eschatologically (or at least given a reduced/commuted sentence), for offenses which would rightly incur God's wrath when committed by other groups.

41 posted on 08/10/2006 3:03:18 PM PDT by Alex Murphy (Colossians 2:6)
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To: Alex Murphy
In general, I'd agree with you that no one group should be singled out based on genetics. But in this case, it's because that same group is already singled out by the opposition and granted a "free pass", redemptively and eschatologically (or at least given a reduced/commuted sentence), for offenses which would rightly incur God's wrath when committed by other groups.

 

Not sure I follow you... No, I am sure I don't follow you,

42 posted on 08/10/2006 3:06:19 PM PDT by rabid liberty (pray for the peace of Jerusalem -- psa. 122:6)
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To: rabid liberty

See my post #34, above.


43 posted on 08/10/2006 3:08:09 PM PDT by Alex Murphy (Colossians 2:6)
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To: rabid liberty; George W. Bush; Buggman; xzins; jude24; Dr. Eckleburg
OP: Show me clearly, from Scripture, that Christ-Rejecting Jews do not HATE GOD. ~~ Is this not true of all people who are not Christians? Why single out one group for the label?

BOOM! Right on the Money. You are exactly right.

See, I do believe that ALL people who are Not Christians, DO HATE GOD.

However, Buggman is holding me to the following account: "You can start by publicly apologizing for calling the Jews 'God-hating' in the previous thread, and swearing to abandon such rhetoric in all future discussions"

I'll Apologize, when Buggman can prove to me (from Scripture) that Christ-Rejecting Jews DO NOT Hate God.

Until that time, I'm sticking with Galatians 3:28 -- we're all up a creek without Jesus, and GOD DAMN any and all Racially-Divisive Theologies -Amen!

44 posted on 08/10/2006 3:11:20 PM PDT by OrthodoxPresbyterian (We are Unworthy Servants; We have only done Our Duty -- Luke 17:10)
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To: OrthodoxPresbyterian
For the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image, and without an ephod, and [without] teraphim:

Afterward shall the children of Israel return, {{WE ARE RIGHT HERE TODAY}} and seek the LORD their God, and David their king; and shall fear the LORD and his goodness in the latter days.


Hosea 3:4-5

45 posted on 08/10/2006 3:11:21 PM PDT by rabid liberty (pray for the peace of Jerusalem -- psa. 122:6)
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To: rabid liberty; MarMema; Dr. Eckleburg; Alex Murphy
For the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image, and without an ephod, and [without] teraphim: Afterward shall the children of Israel return, {{WE ARE RIGHT HERE TODAY}} and seek the LORD their God, and David their king; and shall fear the LORD and his goodness in the latter days. Hosea 3:4-5

Jesus is the King, we are His Israel, He is our Perfect David, and He has already fully fulfilled all sacrifices (Hebrews 10:14 "For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified")... and, really, when you look at it, there's not much more to say.

According to the Apostles, THE CHURCH is "God's Israel" -- not some Socialist Nation-State of Christ-Rejectors who persecute the Jews for Jesus, for crying out loud!

They AREN'T "God's Israel", and thinking otherwise detracts from their True spiritual needs -- they're a bunch of God-Hating, Christ-Rejecting Jews who need to be Prayed For and Converted!!

And what Institution is equal to the task of converting even the God-Haters and the Christ-Blasphemers? Only the Institution ordained and sanctified by Jesus Christ himself -- GOD'S ISRAEL, the Christian Church, marching forth with Word and Sacrament.

Best, OP

46 posted on 08/10/2006 3:24:21 PM PDT by OrthodoxPresbyterian (We are Unworthy Servants; We have only done Our Duty -- Luke 17:10)
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To: OrthodoxPresbyterian

Interesting. I'll hope for the best for this thread. Or maybe just go for beer and popcorn and watch the show.


47 posted on 08/10/2006 3:32:38 PM PDT by Lee N. Field
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To: Lee N. Field
I'll hope for the best for this thread. Or maybe just go for beer and popcorn and watch the show.

I hope that you will enjoy either education or amusement.

I feel that, given the volatility of the topic, I can promise you at least one. ;-)

48 posted on 08/10/2006 3:37:15 PM PDT by OrthodoxPresbyterian (We are Unworthy Servants; We have only done Our Duty -- Luke 17:10)
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To: OrthodoxPresbyterian
For the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image, and without an ephod, and [without] teraphim:

Afterward shall the children of Israel return, {{WE ARE RIGHT HERE TODAY}} and seek the LORD their God, and David their king; and shall fear the LORD and his goodness in the latter days.


Hosea 3:4-5
=====

OP, is the Church the "children of Israel" in this passage? Sure sounds like ethnic Jews since they had a king, prince, etc. at one time and then were without it.

 

 

What's the "many days" reference between the children of Israel (the Church in your eschatology). When did the Church ever lose their King, prince, priesthood, etc.  Sure seems to me the children of Israel speaks of the physical seed of Abraham.

-- your "God-Damned dispensationalism" believing pal

49 posted on 08/10/2006 3:41:20 PM PDT by rabid liberty (pray for the peace of Jerusalem -- psa. 122:6)
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To: OrthodoxPresbyterian
Because, often as not, I don't even wear underwear. Unfortunately, most of us Calvinists are so blessed, we have to go commando. It's just one of our burdens.

I gotta love ya OP! Sometimes you write way over my blondness, but I still gotta love ya! :-)

50 posted on 08/10/2006 3:43:38 PM PDT by ladyinred (Thank God the Brits don't have a New York Times!)
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