A brief survey of anti-Trinitarianism

Vivificat! - A Catholic Blog of Commentary and Opinion ^ | 10 August 2006 | Teófilo

[Teófilo]

I've written this as a follow-up:

An overview of modern anti-Trinitarian heresies.

-Theo

[Eagle Eye]

Gen 3:8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.


Please don't tell me that you couldn't look that up yourself?

Who?

The Lord God. Not Jesus. The Lord God.

[Eagle Eye]

Everything you have said about God and about Jesus has been far from "common sense."

That shows your regard for quoted scripture!

[Eagle Eye]

Yes, very odd. lol....

[Pyro7480]

That shows your regard for quoted scripture!

No, it just goes to show that just because you can quote Scripture, it doesn't mean you're a force for good.

[hosepipe]

[ Can you show me the word 'trinity' in the Bible? No. ]

Good question actually.. Words?.. people get confused with words.. Actually the word Jesus is not in the Bible either.. cause Jesus is not Jesus's name, nor Jehova ... Jehova.... The Bible was generated by Hebrews almost totally and the hebrew language has zero "J's"... Hebrew, the language, has no "J's".. The name Jesus is a latinized word as is Jehova.. The Bible going thru Hebrew, Greek and Latinized forms morphed somewhat in the process..

Amazing the ignorance among those that perport to be educated.. even those educated "as christians".. Little wonder the Bible speaks of missing the "spirit" of the words contained therein.. The Bible speaks of a trinity without actually using the word.. Only those into the spirit of "the Word" truely know what that means anyway.. Amazing the ignorance among those that should not be ignorant because of that.. its almost like a "test".. Yes, indeed it is a "test".. The sheep are indeed being separated from the goats.. Trinity indeed... LoL.. and "Jesus" whos that?..

[betty boop]

The Bible speaks of a trinity without actually using the word.. Only those into the spirit of "the Word" truely know what that means anyway..

Amen, dearest brother in Christ!

[A.J.Armitage]

I have no intention of defending the heretic who's been posting, but I do want to correct your assertion that Sola Scriptura is equivalent to the Muslim view of the Koran. Muslims also consider the Hadith authoritative. Hadith means... tradition.

[.30Carbine]

John's Gospel, chapter 3, the witness of John the Baptizer:

"He who comes from above is above all; he who is of the earth is earthly and speaks of the earth. He who comes from heaven is above all. And what He has seen and heard, that He testifies; and no one receives His testimony. He who has received His testimony has certified that God is true. For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God does not give the Spirit by measure. The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into His hand. He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

For there are three that bear witness in heaven:
the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit;
and these three are one.
1 John 5:7

I urge you in the sight of God who gives life to all things, and before Christ Jesus who witnessed the good confession before Pontius Pilate, that you keep this commandment without spot, blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ’s appearing, which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.
1 Timothy 6:13-16

"These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those who are with Him are called, chosen, and faithful.”
Revelation 17:14

Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:

KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

Revelation 19:15-16

But the thing displeased Samuel when they said, “Give us a king to judge us.” So Samuel prayed to the LORD. And the LORD said to Samuel, “Heed the voice of the people in all that they say to you; for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected Me, that I should not reign over them."

"And when you saw that Nahash king of the Ammonites came against you, you said to me, ‘No, but a king shall reign over us,’ when the LORD your God was your king."

Now Jesus stood before the governor. And the governor asked Him, saying, “Are You the King of the Jews?”

Jesus said to him, “It is as you say.”
1 Samuel 8:6-7; 1 Samuel 12:12; Matthew 12:27

Dear Eagle Eye, I can only claim this promise for you: That he who speaks a word against the Son of Man it can and will be forgiven him. I will not even ask you for your testimony concerning the Spirit, for I fear what thou wouldst say.

[.30Carbine]

Thank you for you marvelous testimony, dear hosepipe. How I love thee!

[RobbyS]

Some Muslims think of the actual Koran as existing in heaven in the Arabic language, which is why they don't put much stock in translations. The Protestant Reformers did not go this far. The Koran is a single book, like "Ezechiel" or" Matthew." . The Bible is a collection of books , and Luther among others did not hesitate to revisit the canon. But Devout Muslims and certain Christian Fundamentalists each treat their respective Scriptures as literally the oracles of God, speaking through the mouth of the prophet. A devout Muslim treats his copy of the Koran as reverently as a devout orthodox treats a sacred Icon and treasures every word. The Haditha are authoritative but secondary.

[A.J.Armitage]

Some Muslims think of the actual Koran as existing in heaven in the Arabic language, which is why they don't put much stock in translations.

I'm pretty sure that's a belief that's part of Islam itself, not just something some of them believe. The cloest Western analogy is probably the Jewish belief that God dictated the Torah to Moses letter-by-letter while he was on Mt. Sinai for fourty days.

The Bible is a collection of books , and Luther among others did not hesitate to revisit the canon.

Not really. The Hebrew canon and the Septuagint canon of the Old Testament both predate Christianity. Luther simply preferred the Hebrew canon.

But Devout Muslims and certain Christian Fundamentalists each treat their respective Scriptures as literally the oracles of God, speaking through the mouth of the prophet.

Well... don't you?

[hosepipe]

[ A devout Muslim treats his copy of the Koran as reverently as a devout orthodox treats a sacred Icon and treasures every word. The Haditha are authoritative but secondary. ]

The Hadith's are the source of the Qu'ran, not the other way around.. The peoples around the Jews sacrificed their children (infants) to Moloch and Aserath(his wife) by boiling them in oil.. and still do(by other means).. Moloch had many names depending upon the dialect.. You do know that "icon" means "idol" don't you..

The people around the Jews have always been into human sacrifice.. As sanquine as the Incas and as "demonic" too.. Even the Amalekites by custom(killed) and buried the first born(probably sacrificed to Moloch) in the foundation of the new house(hut) built for newweds, as a "blessing"...

Little wonder God ordered Isreal's King to kill all Amalekites includeing their domestic animals and cut down any tree that remained(for good measure, to make the point).. To remove this custom/tradition/obscene gesture from the land.. They didn't(a mistake) and were replaced by Muslims.. a different death cult..

Because if anything is true, Muslims are Amalekites, reborn expanded and morphed into worshippers of the Moon God.. Moloch and his wife(consort).. One name for this MoonGod (of old) was Aliallah.. World History would have taken a far more moral turn if Isreals Kings had wiped out the Moloch worshippers completely, not only the Amalekites but several other tribes as well.. Yes, including their farm animals and trees too.. all traces of their cultures..

Islam is a pox(a social disease) not only on the Jews but on mankind in general.. The Amalekites had several incestual "customs" which will not mentioned here.. too.. No doubt common among the Muslims of today.. Strange that child abuse is not only not reported but not even recorded in muslim countrys.. Why is that?.. Even Turkey the most westernized of Muslim countrys.. The Hadiths even reports the proper way to have sex with animals.. so that the meat from those animals can be Halal..

[Jeremiah Jr]

How that becomes a defense for the trinity is... quite odd. :-/

Kabbalah often speaks of grades, levels as it were. Don’t forget the level (of intellect, as it were) you’re dealing with.

[Eagle Eye]

Jhn 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:


Your arguement that because Jesus said that he and God were one means that they are the same doesn't hold water when one looks at the scripture.

If Jesus and God were one and the same and part of a trinity, they where do the disciples fit in? Jesus prayed that they would be one just as God and Jesus were one.

COULD IT BE....that Jesus and God were one in purpose? And that the disciples would be one in purpose?

Married couples are considered 'one' yet they are obviously not the same being.

You guys are pretty good at playing 20 Questions with me but are very short on answers to the questions I pose to you.

If Jesus was, as you seem to contend, walking with Adam, how to you explain that the 'gennesis' of Jesus is described in Matthew 1:18? Genesis...birth...beginning...Matthew 1:18.

When Jesus tells his followers that the works that he did they would do also AND GREATER...how do you explain that if Jesus is God that he promised his believers that they would perform works greater than God?

[.30Carbine]

TRINITY =

triad, three at a time, threefold, a group of three

(from The Barnhart Concise Dictionary of Etymology)

[JohnnyM]

"The Bible clearly states that God is one, not two, not three, not seven, but one."

Hear, O Israel: The LORD(1) our God(2), the LORD(3) is one.

The Trinity. He is One, yet Three.

Jesus is the image of the invisible God

Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

Jesus is also the Creator of all things

Col 1:16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him.

Jesus is also equated with God

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God... John 1:14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Romans 9:3-5 - For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh, who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises, whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.

Isaiah 9:6 - For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

JM

[JohnnyM]

God is spirit and invisible. God is not a man, nor the son of Man and cannot be tempted.

God has no beginning or end. Jesus had a 'genesis' (beginning) at his birth although God knew about him in his (God's) foreknowledge."

So who was walking in the Garden in the cool of the day if God is invisible and Jesus wasn't born yet?

JM

[Eagle Eye]

You tell me.

1Jo 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

So if Jesus was God then no one saw him at any time. Go ahead, argue with me...you aren't arguing with me you are aruing with the Bible.

But if you can insist that one is three and three is one then you can invent any answer you like and just say it is so because you say it is so.

And you take the very verse used plainly to declare that the Lord God is one Lord and pervert it to make it three!

In a world of polytheism, Moses had to remind the Isrealites that unlike baal and ashteroth who were plural gods, Jehova was a SINGLE entity.

THere is one God, and God is one.

Mar 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments [is], Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:


Gal 3:20 Now a mediator is not [a mediator] of one, but God is one

1Cr 8:6 But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.


Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all.

1Ti 2:5 For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;


Jam 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.


1Jo 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

THis passage says that if one believes that Jesus is the Christ, the Messiah, the Sent One, the Annointed One, then one is born of God. It doesn't say to believe that Jesus is God, but that Jesus is the one, the MAN that God sent.


Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.


It doesn't say to believe that Jesus is God, but to believe that God raised Jesus from the dead!

THey are different. God is one. Jesus is the mediator between God and man.

And he is a man.

[Eagle Eye]

So we agree that by definition trinity means three.

Do we also agree that there is one (True) God? That's good, because that is what the Bible says.

Can we further agree that God is one? That, too is good because that is also what the Bible says.

What? You say that God is three? Wait, you say that God is one? Or you say that God is both three and one?

To believe in the trinity means to believe that God is three.

To believe the Bible is to believe that God is one.

Sorry, I didn't write the book!