Posted on 08/29/2006 7:24:18 AM PDT by Alex Murphy
Purpose Driven Pastor Rick Warren recently returned from a 48-day trip around the world, launching P.E.A.C.E. Plans and training tens of thousands of church leaders in nations where Warren's name and best-selling book, The Purpose Driven Life, are far from foreign. Warren was also one of a still small number of faith leaders, as many Christian leaders had indicated, who spoke at the world's largest AIDS conference in Toronto which concluded late last week. After a good 28 hours of rest upon returning home to Saddleback, Calif., Warren spoke with The Christian Post about his global journey and the ever-present AIDS pandemic.
CP: Can you first give a reflection on the 14-nation tour that you recently concluded? Any new revelations or eye-openers?
Warren: I came away from the 48-day trip in 14 nations with a couple of attitudes. One is an attitude of gratitude of what God is doing in the world. It's very exciting to see. I really believe that the future of Christianity is Africa, Asia, and Latin America. It's not North America and it's not Europe. And I think that's very obvious. We saw the church growing in a number of different places. It's very fulfilling to see the Purpose Driven paradigm, the Purpose Driven strategy being used in all kinds of situations - rural, urban, suburban, poor and wealthy places; everything from peasants to presidents.
There were a number of really neat stories. One of them was when I was flying in from Hong Kong to Manila and the flight attendant gave me a copy of the Manila paper. On the front cover was an article about this communist leader who had read The Purpose Driven Life and accepted Christ and was now trying to serve the Lord.
Also in the Philippines we hear about how the police force is using The Purpose Driven Life to train all their police cadets. Over 10,000 police cadets had gone over 40 Days of Purpose and also if you get involved in some kind of scandal or corruption, they send you for retraining through the Purpose Driven Life.
I never get tired of the stories. We have now trained over 400,000 church leaders in 163 countries and we were doing that long before we started the P.E.A.C.E. Plan. I've been training pastors for now 26 years. I've just heard so many stories that have been written to me - everything from little tiny house churches to the largest churches in the world.
CP: Switching gears, I know there's been a lot of buzz about your North Korea trip. I just wanted to touch on that. What, if anything, have you learned from your meetings with South Korean clergy about North Korea? And how do they feel about your speaking there?
Warren: I have been encouraged by the church in South Korea to take any opportunity I can to speak in North Korea. There was an invitation for me to come to North Korea next year and speak at the 100th anniversary of the Pyongyang revival. The committee invited me to come and be a part of that. I haven't heard anything lately on it but I go not for political reasons; I go to share the good news. I go wherever I'm invited and if I get invited there and they don't limit what I say, I'm happy to go. I would look forward to that honor and opportunity.
CP: Were there significantly contrasting views among the clergy in South Korea?
Warren: There may have been, but I didn't hear any. They were all just very happy that the invitation had been opened and offered. I believe it would be the first opportunity for public preaching of the good news in a long time.
CP: Switching gears again, the International AIDS Conference shifted the focus from treatment to prevention. And although the ABC model is what most Christians point to, mainly the first half of the model, U.N. leaders and activists say you can't avoid sex and drugs. But it seems nowadays that even churches are beginning to understand and accept that reality. Would you agree? And are you a strong advocate of the ABC policy?
Warren: I think ABC is good. I think that there is more than ABC. A lot of people who believe in ABC believe that's good but that there are other things too. For instance, a woman could have abstained from sex until marriage. She could be faithful to her husband, but if her husband has AIDS and doesn't tell her, she's still going to get it. So ABC doesn't help her because all three of those are in the control of her husband in many ways.
When I was at the conference I spoke about an alternative - the two acrostics "slow" and "stop." Instead of debating ABC, I think the question to ask is "what is the purpose of prevention?" Tell me what the purpose of prevention is and I'll tell you which strategy you should use. Is your purpose to curb or reduce the pandemic? Or is it to cure it, get rid of it? You have to decide whether your goal is alleviation or whether it's eradication. I came up with two acrostics - "slow" that will slow down the pandemic and "stop" that will stop the pandemic. And a lot of people don't want to stop the pandemic because they're not willing to make the behavioral changes. What they want is to slow it down as long as "I don't have to change my behavior." And many people at the conference didn't think that behavior should change or we should even ask people to change behavior. But that's the role of the church. We have the moral authority to say that behavior change is possible. And you can't talk about AIDS without talking about behavior because it's a primarily behavior-based disease. You don't get it just out of the air.
On "slow," the four things that will reduce the number of people who have AIDS. First is "supply condoms." And there are some people who think all we need to give condoms to everybody in the whole world and it will solve it. No, it won't solve it. It will slow it down, but it won't stop the pandemic. The "L" in "slow" stands for "limit the number of partners." Limiting the number of partners will definitely reduce the risk of people getting AIDS. "O" is to "offer needle exchanges." If you gave addicts clean needles, they're less likely to get an AIDS infection. The "W" in "slow" stands for "wait for sex." What I mean by that is what a lot of people talk about is delay your first sexual experience. They tell people to put it off as long as possible because they don't believe it's possible for people to live without sex. They're not saying wait until marriage, they're just saying to wait a while.
Those four things will slow the pandemic, no doubt about it. They're very popular and at the conference those four were talked about over and over because they don't require behavioral change. They're not painful. They don't allow you to need much discipline. They're just easy to do. So they're popular and they're easy.
The things that will stop the pandemic are much more difficult and that's why they're unpopular. "S" in "stop" stands for "save sex for marriage." Now nobody can doubt that if everybody did that, AIDS would die in one generation. It would be over in one single generation if people only had sex in marriage. It's just that people don't want to do it. "T" -- this is a real big one -- stands for "train men to treat women with respect." We're not ever going to solve this pandemic until we do that because AIDS is now primarily a female disease driven by male behavior. What I mean by that is more women than men have AIDS now in the world -- about 60 percent. And this has been a big turning point. But it's being driven by men who are unfaithful or passing it on to women. So this is a cultural issue. The only place women are really treated well is when people really take Jesus seriously. And there are even people who claim to be Christians who don't treat women well. And around the world, this is a spiritual problem. Only the Church can teach men how to treat women with respect. The government will never be able to transform a man. Legislation can't. Only Jesus can transform a man.
Forget about Rick Warren and read your BIBLE.Warren is a pinko at best.
A book worth reading:
http://inthenameofpurpose.org/inthename.pdf
"Look - a major American religious leader was invited to speak here! Clearly America lies when it says we are unfree!"
They have "Purpose" in North Korea too, only they call it "Juche."
Well, you know what the solution to the North America problem is, don't you? Everyone must read and memorize "The Purpose Driven Life," and hang on Warren's every word!
/sarc
Seriously, Western Europe and parts of North America could use a reawakening and a true move of the Holy Spirit convicting people of their need for Jesus Christ and salvation from their sins. Don't look for the likes of Warren to be involved in such a "harsh" endeavor, though.
A review of Rick Warren's The Purpose-Driven Life [Excerpted]
Spiritual therapy for the Christian new in faith, but difficult for the informed believer to have patience with.
Help yourself to the milk. ....the advice he gives -- which amounts to "God has a purpose for you" -- is the sort of thing your average Israelite in the Ancient Near East would have taken for granted. Is it not a sad commentary that we need to be reminded of this simple and basic truth 40 different ways by Warren's text?
More here: http://www.tektonics.org/books/warrenr01.html
And here: Self Center http://www.tektonics.org/qt/selfesteem.html
Thanks - it's good to know this even exists!
Didn't know that Mr. Warren was a member of the latex worshiping crowd.
Of course, the Purpose sent Rick to downtown Manila - not to fringe islands and Muslim settlements.
On the other hand, I'd like to hear Warren's opinion on how St. Paul could possibly have been so successful given his ministry's total lack of cute little English anagrams.
LOL!
Good one.
Read later.
The Apostle Paul didn't put on skits or have a 1st century version of a rock band, either. What was he thinking? Didn't he know he was too "heavy" and "boring" for the seekers?
The apostles did just fine.
The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the message of Christ Crucified for the remission of sin, unto ALL peoples.
There is no "Other Gospel."
Mr. Warren is not a preacher of the Gospel.
Excellent! The Holy Spirit is convicting people to come to Christ through Warren's ministry and books.
LOL! Rick Warren says that Rick Warren's book changed someone's life!
Actually, Rick Warren said there was an article on the front cover of the Manilla paper. Are you saying this isn't true? If it is true, the Holy Spirit is convicting people to come to Christ through Rick Warren's ministry.
I'm saying that I doubt the actual facts of the case are identical to the version told by Warren.
And I can't find a shred of evidence to back up his claim anywhere on the web. I'm asking a colleague of Filipino ancestry to check Filipino websites as well.
It's good to be skeptical. But, there are other similar actual facts of the Holy Spirit convicting people to come to Christ through Warren's ministry.
Great! Let me know what you find out.
The man in question's name is Renato Constantino.
He was never the leader of the CPP, but was a member of an undercover cadre with the codename of "Kaka", who was charged with organizing street protests in Manila.
While he was in prison in 1988, a Christian police captain named Balligi Tira witnessed to him and over a period of months, he decided to become a Christian.
Tira's congregation, Greenhills Christian Fellowship apparently got involved with Warren's PEACE initiative a few years ago, and Constantino is now a volunteer and organizer for PEACE initiatives.
Constantino was not converted by reading The Purpose Driven Life - which was published in 2002, 14 years after he converted.
So when Warren writes, as he does above, that: "this communist leader who had read The Purpose Driven Life and accepted Christ and was now trying to serve the Lord" he is simply not telling the truth.
I'll point out that the paper in which this article was published, the July 23, 2006 edition of the Philippine Inquirer is an English language newspaper.
I found something similar here: Ex-communist finds purpose-driven cause. If this is the article Warren saw, the title might have thrown him off.
Because so many lives have been changed through Warren's ministry, I try to give him the benefit of the doubt.
Don't give Warren the benefit of the doubt. He can't even get a simple story right, and he twists it (as he does the Scriptures) to suit himself and his agenda.
"In the mid-1980s, when the CPP was cleansing its ranks of suspected deep-penetration agents, Constantino was among those at the party’s helm. But the purge, which killed around 3,000 of his comrades, nagged at his conscience.
“I became confused. What right did we have to determine the fate of others when we ourselves were not beyond reproach? What was once a choice assignment for me became a living hell. It was then that I said, ‘If there is a God, He would take me out of this,’” he said.
His “rescue” came in the form of an arrest in August 1988. He was detained at Camp Crame for over a year.
Kindness
In prison, Constantino found kindness in his arresting officer, then Capt. Balligi Tira (now superintendent of the Philippine National Police Academy).
At first he thought it was just a ploy to break him down, but when Tira’s father and brother, who were pastors at the Greenhills Christian Fellowship, started visiting him and telling him about God’s love and forgiveness, he submitted.
In an affidavit, he admitted his involvement with the CPP—but declined the government’s request for him to turn state witness.
Once, brought before then President Corazon Aquino, Constantino was asked what he would do if he were set free. He said he would do the same thing—serve the people."
The Holy Spirit convicts people to come to Christ through Warren's ministry. I've seen it myself.
He can't even get a simple story right, and he twists it
The guy is human and busy. I can see him getting confused about some details, and there are other similar stories that have made the news.
The previous article I posted states his Purpose Driven Life book is changing lives in the Philippines. Even theologin Dr. Melba Maggay (executive director of the Institute for Studies in Asian Church and Culture) who has expressed discomfort of the Purpose Driven Life said it's "main strength is that it can easily convince non-Christians or Christians whose faith is weak."
The Holy Spirit is convicting people to come to Christ through his ministry and I find it extremely odd that some professing Christians have a problem with that fact.
"The Holy Spirit is convicting people to come to Christ through his ministry and I find it extremely odd that some professing Christians have a problem with that fact."
The problem is that he is wolf in sheep's clothing. Jesus warned us about men like him.
http://www.crossroad.to/articles2/news/9-purpose-resisters.htm
You are probably referring to Matthew 7:15 where Jesus was referring to false prophets. The Holy Spirit is convicting people to come to Christ through Warren's ministry, and according to Jesus, a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.
Jesus warned us about men like him.
Jesus said some interesting statements about the Pharisees as well.
As I said, Jesus Christ warned His followers (including me) about the Warren types, and I intend to heed His warnings.
By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.God is using Warren's ministry to bring people to Christ, which, given the context, is my definition of good fruit. If that is your definition, perhaps you should rethink your position on Warren.
I don't know that many people are truly being born again because of Warren's ministry. Warren makes a lot of grandiose claims, just like the one he got busted for in this thread. Warren produces a lot of rotten fruit, in my opinion.
Thank you for speaking out what I am thinking. God has a place and a ministry for all of us. Theologically, I should become a Catholic, but the Catholics won't let me take communion because I've been divorced twice, so I continue with my Episcopal church and tend to my own ministry-- my family, my daughters' friends, and other young women I meet.
The Lord works in mysterious ways. Doctrinal purists will never understand it.
You don't know but you're perfectly willing to cast doubt on his ministry. A ministry that uses a biblical definition of the gospel as I demonstrated to you here. You didn't respond to that post which demonstrates Warren defines the gospel as you do. But to you he's a false prophet. If true and you define the gospel the same way, what does that make you?
"Purpose Driven Pastor Rick Warren ... Warren's name and best-selling book, The Purpose Driven Life, ... It's very fulfilling to see the Purpose Driven paradigm, the Purpose Driven strategy being used in all kinds of situations ... who had read The Purpose Driven Life ... the police force is using The Purpose Driven Life... gone over 40 Days of Purpose ... through the Purpose Driven Life."
Sheesh, talk about unashamed product hucksterism!!!
("Snake Oil Pastor Rick Warren ... Warren's name and best-selling book, The Snake Oil Driven Life, ... It's very fulfilling to see the Snake Oil paradigm, the Snake Oil strategy being used in all kinds of situations ... who had read The Snake Oil Driven Life ... the police force is using The Snake Oil Driven Life... gone over 40 Days of Snake Oil ... through the Snake Oil Driven Life.")
I cast doubt on him because I have read his own words and many critiques of him, and drawn my own conclusions. What I don't understand is why so many are so anxious to follow him, defend him, and be his disciples. Why do people seem to have so much emotion and belief invested in Warren or any other man? When people tried to lift up the Apostle Paul or other men in the church, Paul told them to stop. So did John the Baptist.
I admire Rick Warren, but I think this is a real mistake. The fact is that Rick Warren will not be allowed to say what must be said, and that is to challenge the view of the state as god in North Korea. In the minds of millions of North Koreans, the state is the final ethical arbiter. To truly preach Christ, you must knock down this worldview that sets itself up against a knowledge of God (2 Cor. 10:5.) WIll North Korea allow this? I doubt it.
Will Rick be allowed to meet with real North Korean Christians, Christians that are not "licensed" by the state? Since it's illegal there, I seriously doubt it.
Billy Graham got in some trouble about 25 years ago after he preached in the Soviet Union. What these great men of God should do is explain to the host country what they will say if invited, get the invitation refused, and trust that the word of Christ will be spread in North Korea regardless. (In this case, probably from China.)
Yet if Rick Warren understands this much, he knows the answer to the fundamental question of our time.
I have no idea why you think anybody follows Rick Warren. The Holy Spirit is convicting many for Christ through Warren's ministry and other people see what's happening and are getting involved.
I think we would do well to follow Paul's words in Col 3:1-15 and Titus 3.
Now, I'm sure I don't agree with everything Warren says but he's got the fundamentals down solid. From his What We Believe website:
ABOUT GODThe above is what Rick Warren believes and teaches. With what do you disagree?
God is the Creator and Ruler of the universe. He has eternally existed in three persons: the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. These three are co-equal and are one God. Genesis 1:1,26,27; 3:22; Psalm 90:2; Matthew 28:19; 1 Peter 1:2; 2 Corinthians 13:14ABOUT MAN
Man is made in the spiritual image of God, to be like Him in character. He is the supreme object of God´s creation. Although man has tremendous potential for good, he is marred by an attitude of disobedience toward God called "sin". This attitude separates man from God. Genesis 1:27; Psalm 8:3-6; Isaiah 53:6a; Romans 3:23; Isaiah 59:1,2ABOUT ETERNITY
Man was created to exist forever. He will either exist eternally separated from God by sin, or in union with God through forgiveness and salvation. To be eternally separated from God is Hell. To be eternally in union with Him is eternal life. Heaven and Hell are places of eternal existence. John 3:16; John 2:25; John 5:11-13; Romans 6:23; Revelation 20:15; 1 John 5:11-12; Matthew 25:31-46ABOUT JESUS CHRIST
Jesus Christ is the Son of God. He is co-equal with the Father. Jesus lived a sinless human life and offered Himself as the perfect sacrifice for the sins of all men by dying on a cross. He arose from the dead after three days to demonstrate His power over sin and death. He ascended to Heaven´s glory and will return again to earth to reign as King of kings, and Lord of lords. Matthew 1:22,23; Isaiah 9:6; John 1:1-5, 14:10-30; Hebrews 4:14,15; 1 Corinthians 15:3,4; Romans 1:3,4; Acts 1:9-11; 1 Timothy 6:14,15; Titus 2:13ABOUT SALVATION
Salvation is a gift from God to man. Man can never make up for his sin by self-improvement or good works. Only by trusting in Jesus Christ as God´s offer of forgiveness can man be saved from sin´s penalty. Eternal life begins the moment one receives Jesus Christ into his life by faith. Romans 6:23; Ephesians 2:8,9; John 14:6, 1:12; Titus 3:5; Galatians 3:26; Romans 5:1ABOUT ETERNAL SECURITY
Because God gives man eternal life through Jesus Christ, the believer is secure in salvation for eternity. Salvation is maintained by the grace and power of God, not by the self-effort of the Christian. It is the grace and keeping power of God that gives this security. John 10:29; 2 Timothy 1:12; Hebrews 7:25; 10:10,14; 1 Peter 1:3-5ABOUT THE HOLY SPIRIT
The Holy Spirit is equal with the Father and the Son as God. He is present in the world to make men aware of their need for Jesus Christ. He also lives in every Christian from the moment of salvation. He provides the Christian with power for living, understanding of spiritual truth, and guidance in doing what is right. The Christian seeks to live under His control daily. 2 Corinthians 3:17; John 16:7-13, 14:16,17; Acts 1:8; 1 Corinthians 2:12, 3:16; Ephesians 1:13; Galatians 5:25; Ephesians 5:1ABOUT THE BIBLE
The Bible is God´s word to all men. It was written by human authors, under the supernatural guidance of the Holy Spirit. It is the supreme source of truth for Christian beliefs and living. Because it is inspired by God, it is truth without any mixture of error. 2 Timothy 3:16; 2 Peter 1:20,21; 2 Timothy 1:13; Psalm 119:105,160, 12:6; Proverbs 30:5)
And it's perfectly okay for you to think that. A friend told me what Rick Warren wants on his tombstone, and while I don't know anything about the author of this article (who seems to agree with you about North Korea), he states the following, which is exactly what my friend said:
At the end of the television special Warren said there were four words he wanted on his tombstone when he died: “At Least He Tried.” I give him full credit, he is trying to make a real difference in this world and people who love Christ ought to love and support him in every way possible. We have far too few mega-church pastors with either the vision or integrity of Rick Warren.It really grieves my spirit to read what some say about Rick Warren. He's trying, and if some people don't agree with what he's trying to do then perhaps the best thing to do is remain silent or pray for his ministry.
You got em fingered!
He talks the talk, but doesn't walk the walk. If he believes all these things, which are pretty straightforward, why does he need to reference fifteen or more Bible versions in order to push his Purpose Driven agenda? Why does he see the need for seeker friendly preaching instead of just preaching what he believes, full stop? If he really believes that all men need the salvation offered by Jesus Christ, why does he spend time promoting his Purpose Driven growth methods in synagogues to help build them up, when he should be spending his time helping them to know Christ?
You don't know Warren's heart and you don't know the hearts of those who claim to have come to faith in Christ through Warren's ministry, but you're sure something is wrong, somewhere.
It seems to me you should heed Paul's words referenced above.
AH, Mr. Warren is at it again... pushing another so called social "gospel" message. He will preach anything just so long as it is NOT the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Let's see, he has preached the "seeker sensitive purpose driven" gospel... "Don't preach on sin or hell..., ALWAYS preach 'positive' messages'... you do not want to offend the sensabilities of the seekers."
The "man is responsibel for global warming, what would Jesus drive" gospel...
The "Evangelical fundamentalists pose the greatest threat to world peace" gospel...
Now he is on to his latest and greatest false gospel... his "Let's SLOW Aids through offering condoms and needle exchanges"... false gospel.
But what does it matter; this wolf in sheep’s clothing "pastors" a mega church and is one of the most popular guys out their, so he must be doing "god's work".
Matthew 7:21-22
Go figure... Rick Warren is from North America. How come his great influence for the Lord isn't bearing fruit?
He'll do his best to water down the message in those other areas too.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.