Posted on 09/10/2006 9:16:53 PM PDT by boromeo
Dear redgolum,
"Remember also, the first Christian body to declare freemasons out of bounds was not the Vatican, it was the Lutheran synods of what is now Germany."
I knew that many orthodox Christian groups have condemned membership in Masonry, including Lutherans, but I didn't realize that the Lutherans did this so early. When did the Lutherans first take notice of Masonry and forbid membership?
Thanks,
sitetest
Dear redgolum,
"In some Lutheran Synods, membership in the Boy Scouts is not encouraged because, as you say, they mention a "god" but not which one."
Wow, thanks, I didn't know that.
sitetest
Dear redgolum,
"Partially because of some of the stuff coming out of Prussia at the time."
If you don't mind, and have the time, could you expand on that please?
Thanks,
sitetest
mark for later.
So is it the position of American Lutherans to forbid membership in the Masonic Lodge. My apologies if you have already stated so, and I missed that fact.
Care to weigh in on the discussion?
bump
"Yes, but we're talking about Catholic-Mason relations here, and John Calvin doesn't really hold a lot (or any actually) theological weigh in our Church."
Obviously. That was not the point --- the point there are a lot of people (snake-handling protestants, generally) who claim "GAOU" is not the God-of-Abraham.
The reference to Calvin (a literalist of literalist, and an undoubted commited Christian, even if one has problems with his denomination and ideas) was to show that the snake-handler idea is wrong.
There is more on the "other names of God" in other posts here. (Briefly, I am a born Jew, trained in Israel, no less, and Hebrew has LOTS of "names" for the one God.)
"And I wanted to point out that each of the Grand Lodges in the United States dictates that in all of its lodges, all religious texts are considered equal and serve equally as well in the lodge. If your Master decides that the Bible in your lodge should be replaced by the Koran and the vote is passed, it is so. "
False. All AF&AM in the United States require in their Constitutions that only the KJV be used.
I did not know that, either.
But God knows who He is. And I do to.
Dear MWTexan;
I don't wish to get into a pointless gainsaying demonstration here. Google up any Grand Lodge constitution. They say specifically the Book or Volume of the Sacred Laws. They sometimes mention the Bible, but only as an example of a book of Laws. And I have never seen any constitution that declares the KJV to be the only Book of Laws.
Again, I don't know what you're arguing about or defending. I have and can amass a whole bunch of evidence; you've presented nothing in evidence other than your unsupported statements. I don't wish to engage in any flame war with you; from the quality of your posts, you seem an honourable man. But I shall not engage further unless you come back with some proofs of what you say.
Please post those links to the various Grand Lodge constitutions, I googled the Grand Lodges of Arkansas, Texas and Ohio, and was unable to find any link to the Grand Lodge Constitution.
Oh come on, if you were ever an EA, you remember that memorizing the "furniture" of a lodge was the "Holy Bible, Square & Compass, and a Charter" and further memorizing this speech:
WM: My Brother, on being brought to Light in Freemasonry, you first behold the Three Great Lights, by aid of the representatives of the Three Lesser.
The Three Great Lights in Masonry are the Holy Bible, Square and Compasses, and are thus explained: The Holy Bible is given us as the rule and guide for our faith and practice, the Square to square our actions, and the Compasses circumscribe our desires and keep our passions in due bound with all mankind, especially the Brethren.
(Bible Lecture)
I particularly direct your attention to the Great Light in Masonry, the Holy Bible. Howsoever men differ in creed or theology, all good men are agreed that within the covers of the Holy Bible are found those principles of morality which lay the foundation upon which to build a righteous life. Freemasonry therefore opens this Book upon its Altars, with the command to each of its votaries that he diligently study therein to learn the way to everlasting life. Adopting no particular creed, forbidding sectarian discussion within its Lodgerooms, encouraging each to be steadfast in the faith of his acceptance, Freemasonry takes all good men by the hand, and leading them to its Altars, points to the open Bible thereon, and urges upon each that he faithfully direct his steps through life by the Light he there shall find, and as he there shall find it.
If from our sacred altars the atheist, the infidel, the irreligious man, or the libertine should ever be able to wrest this Book of Sacred Laws, and thus remove, or even obscure, the greatest Light in Masonry - that Light which has for centuries been the rule and guide of Freemasons - then could we no longer claim for ourselves the great rank and title of Free and Accepted Masons; but so long as that Sacred Light shines upon our altars, so long as it illuminates the pathway of the Craftsmen by the golden rays of truth, so long and no longer can Freemasonry live and shed its beneficent influence upon mankind. Guard then, that Book of sacred and immutable law as you would guard your very life. Defend it as you would the flag of your country. Live according to its divine teachings, with its everlasting assurance of a blessed immortality."
If you didn't get that speech, then you were not a real mason.
Depends on the synod.
The LCMS and WELS are the two big synods that forbid it ( I am LCMS), and there are a lot of smaller ones that do to.
The ELCA can't make up its mind if it is a Christian denomination or a debate society, so they don't have many rules on forbidding anything.
And in further follow up it is the:
"adopting no particular creed, forbidding sectarian discussion within its Lodgerooms"
part that the RCC has historically had a problem, in that FM has historically accepted all Christian denominations as equally legitimate for its purposes.
Thanks for the info, I googled the subject myself and by chance found the website of a Lutheran Church in New York that apparently has an on going debate over allowing the Boy Scouts to meet in their church fellowship hall. The page on the website made reference to the fact that many of our American founding fathers were Masons, and opined, something to the effect, "Is the God of our founding fathers, one nation under God, a false God". The website of this particular church apparently thought not.
http://www.stpeter-brooklyn.org/serious_problem.html
True, but does your neighbor know which god you are praying to? If he sees you, in a civic or other ceremony, praying to a nameless "god" along with Hindu's, Muslims, Animists, etc, who are also all praying, then who are you praying to? That is an important point. Ceremonies which invoke "god" and "faith" but specifically don't mention Jesus are problematic at best.
Nowadays, most congregations don't worry about the Boy Scouts, but in my father's day, it was forbidden (along with many other such organizations) because while they required a belief in "god", there was no specification on what that god was.
In short, it is to prevent from bearing false witness to Christ. In this society, many people say "all paths lead to heaven" and specific religions are not important. As a Christian, I know that Jesus, because of his death and Resurrection, is the only way to Heaven. So participating in a way which implies that there are other god besides the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is very dangerous. Our forefathers in the faith died for that distinction.
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