Posted on 09/10/2006 9:16:53 PM PDT by boromeo
Thank you, and God bless you as well.
Just last night, I cracked open C.S. Lewis's "Mere Christianity" for the first time (just finished Screwtape letters).
His opening admonition was that Christians, of the various denominations, should not bicker about the 2% we don't agree with, except in very private, and certainly not in front of ANYONE who has not accepted Christ.
I am looking forward to a good read.
We American Catholics are living in a nation that is essentially Masonic in its roots. There have been some periods of persecution of Catholics in American history but we have little reason to complain. For most of us, we were not dragged here in chains nor were our ancestors. On balance, the concededly Masonic United States has been very good to us and to everyone else of good will.
Perhaps you missed my previous post in which I said that, if the Masonic Order is in decline in the US, that is not good news for my country. Also, lest I forget, John F. Kennedy's membership in the Knights of Columbus made him neither a good knight, nor a good Catholic nor a good president. OTOH, the US was, despite dire predictions, under no danger that JFK would have been taking orders from the pope (and a very liberal Pope John XXIII at that!)
I was poking a little fun at your "they do it, too."
I'm a Mason and I have no problem with Catholicism; my first wife was Catholic.
I was raised a Seventh Day Adventist, I haven't been to church since my teens, in the early 40's.
I still believe that Jesus Christ died on the cross for our sins and was resurrected and will be returning (I believe, very soon) soon.
The ground is indeed level at the foot of the cross.
Shriner's Orthopaedic and Burn Care Hospitals
http://www.masonicinfo.com/shrinehosp.htm
Given without charge to children for over 75 years!
As one Shriner put it, "We can't put a price on what we do for these children so we do it for free!"
For those living in Mexico, the US or Canadian, these hospitals are pretty well known. What is not always known is that all Shriners are Masons! There are 22 hospitals throughout the United States: three for treatment of burns and 19 which address crippled children's medical problems.
The first Shriners Hospital opened in Shreveport, Louisiana in 1922 and the first Burns Institute opened in Galveston, Texas in 1966. To date, the Shriners have spent over $3 billion dollars on hospital operating costs and over $7 million on construction and renovation.
The number of children helped to date is nearing 550,000 and all care is free! The one department which is never found in a Shrine Hospital is a billing department. Funds for this come from gifts, bequests, income from the endowment fund, hospital fund-raising events, and the annual hospital assessment paid by every Shriner (of which there are approximately 600,000).
If you'd like to find out more about the Shriners Hospitals, you can also go to the Shrine Hospitals web site and if you'd like to read some really heart-warming patient success stories, they've got some right here.
Shrine Football
Football fans also know of the Shrine Hospitals through the Annual East-West Shrine Football Classic and Pageant which was begun in 1925. During the past ten years, the game has drawn an average of 70,000 fans, by far the largest attendance of any college all-star game. Over the years, "Football's Finest Hour" has raised more than $14 million dollars to provide quality medical care free of charge to children of every race and religion.
In addition, throughout the United States, there are hundreds of high school post-season football games also played for the benefit of the Shrine Hospitals. For many graduating seniors, it is their last competitive football game but the one they'll remember with the fondest memories, despite the other accolades they may have received while playing. An essential part of game preparation is a trip to a local Shrine Children's Hospital so that these athletes will see the children they're helping.
The motto of all Shrine football games is:
"Strong Legs Run That Weak Legs May Walk."
CONTACTING SHRINERS HOSPITALS
If you know of a child who might benefit from care at a Shrine Burns or Crippled Children's facility, contact ANY Shriner or call one of our toll-free patient referral lines between 8 a.m. and 5 p.m. Eastern Time. In the United States: 1-800-237-5055. In Canada: 1-800-361-7256.
For emergency burn admissions to one of the Shriners Hospitals that treat burns, the referring physician should telephone the chief of staff at the Shriners Hospital in Boston, Cincinnati, Galveston, Tex., or Sacramento, California and indicate the patient needs emergency care. Emergency care is not available at the orthopaedic hospitals. Non-emergency admissions of burn patients for reconstructive or plastic surgery can be arranged in the same manner as orthopaedic admissions at the nearest Shriners Hospital for Children.
New material that has been added recently to the Shrine and Shriners Hospitals Web Site includes:
CHILD-FRIENDLY MURAL
Dentist's passion for art brings fantasies to life
IN THE NEWS
Three Shriners Hospitals physicians receive recognition
VIEWPOINT
Beyond rehab: A 'wellness' program for severely burned children By David N. Herndon, M.D.
TEDDY BEAR TIME
Special week at burn hospital focuses on well-being and its role in healing
NEW LEASE ON LIFE
Hess twins receive burn care beyond compare
At A Glance
News from around Shriners Hospitals for Children
And don't forget: a new search engine has been added to the Shriners Web site, to help you find specific items of information more easily. Just go to http://www.shrinershq.org/searchxav.html Information on each individual Shriners Hospital can be accessed through the hospital directory page at http://www.shrinershq.org/shc/
The Masonic Knight Templar Eye Foundation
http://www.masonicinfo.com/kteye.htm
As a Knight Templar Mason, one has many opportunities to help others who are less fortunate. One way is through the Knights Templar Eye Foundation. The Eye Foundation is a great humanitarian charity whose purpose is to provide research, surgical treatment and hospitalization to those who suffer from diseases or injury to the eyes. Cross-eyes, which occurs in children under 16 for example, is one affliction that can lead to blindness if not treated properly and is just one of the eye afflictions for which the Foundation provides considerable research and treatment funding.
Concern For Others
Since its inception in 1956, the Knights Templar Eye Foundation has spent more than $89,000,000 ($89 million) dollars to help those who could not afford eye surgery. Today, over 75,000 people have benefited from this financial assistance. More than $8,000,000 has been given to research. And as always, treatments are provided regardless of race, color, creed, age, national origin OR Masonic membership.
The Knights Templar Eye Foundation, Inc. is a partner with EyeCare America Seniors EyeCare Program to which KTEF gives financial support and enables them to help more people in need. EyeCare America can be reached at the toll free number 877-887-6327
and should be called before any surgery is performed. Any Sir Knight calling EyeCare America should identify himself as a K.T. and the proper forms will be sent to him.
The foundation has moved from Chicago, Illinois to Schaumburg, Illinois:
Knights Templar Eye Foundation, Inc.
1000 East State Parkway, Suite I
Schaumburg, IL 60173
Phone: (847) 490-3838
Fax: (847) 490-3777
or by e-mail to ktefofc@ix.netcom.com
Caring and Concern: Masonic Charities
http://www.masonicinfo.com/caring.htm
We've put together some separate pages on some Masonic charities and you can click on those in the left margin. They are the very visible ones which many will recognize. In addition, though, there are many, many others which address health concerns.
Kids Helping Kids
The International Order of Job's Daughters plays an important role in serving the community, visiting hospitals and homes for the elderly to offer friendship to people who might be lonely and sad. They have food drives and other activities to provide for the less fortunate.
Their charity, the Hearing Impaired Kid's Endowment (The HIKE Fund), provides hearing assistive devices for children in need. Popular "hikes for HIKE," provide a special charitable service to communities. Their work with hearing-impaired children has led many local groups, called Bethels, to learn sign language. These young women are rightfully proud to be "kids helping kids! "
The Small Island with the Large Heart
Jersey is the smallest Province of the United Grand Lodge of England, supporting just eleven Lodges. Jersey, however, is not within the United Kingdom, having been a possession of the Duke of Normandy long before 1066. It is part of the Channel Islands and is an island of just 45 square miles, situated about fourteen miles off the coast of France.
Freemasonry in Jersey is alive and well despite its size and tribulations which included the sacking of their Masonic Temples by Hitler's troops. In 1996/7 their donations to charity totaled £35,000. Of this, £17,000 was given to the Masonic Trust for Boys and Girls but local charities who benefited during this period included The Order of St.John - £5,500 was donated to supply specialized equipment for ambulances [neck collars, spinal boards, life support resuscitation items]; The Jersey Health Service - £6,750 was donated to purchase paramedic equipment used in front line ambulances, to measure oxygen status and other vital signs of critically ill patients; National Autistic Society - £3,100 to purchase a lightwriter machine to enable a seven year old boy to communicate; Motor Neurone Disease Association £3,100 to help purchase equipment for a Jersey family [mother of three young children, greatly handicapped by the disease]; and Survivors of Bereavement by Suicide £250 to assist with the costs of setting up a local branch.
Having raised a total of some £600,000 for Masonic and non-Masonic charities over the past 37 years, our Jersey Brethren can be rightfully proud of their Masonic charity -- and all this with a total of only some 700 Masons!
Canadian Scottish Rite Cares
At its Annual Session in 1964 the Scottish Rite of Canada's Supreme Council resolved to establish a vehicle through which to practice that virtue that every mason professes to admire -- namely charity. Their Foundation was established and provided that all donations would be immediately capitalized but only the income earned by the capital -- to the extent of at least 90% -- would be required to be disbursed annually.
The terms of incorporation, were designed to permit the Foundation to support one or more charities which carried on its work solely within Canada, and to vary the selection as it saw fit. However, from its incorporation the Directors resolved to concentrate its efforts in support of research into the causes of and hopefully eventual cure of, intellectual disability, initially as it affected children, and later, as well, as it affected persons of advanced years in the form of Alzheimer's Disease.
The Foundation has worked closely with the Roeher Institute, which is recognized for its expertise in the field of research affecting persons with an intellectual impairment and other disabilities. Research is funded by the Foundation through the Institute.
The Institute provides professional assistance to the Foundation in the adjudication of requests for bursary and research awards, and in the choice of major grant recipients in physical/biological and socio/economic research. Millions of dollars have been disbursed as the result of the generosity of donors, members of the rite, and others.
Minnesota Masonic Cancer Center
Part of the University of Minnesota's Academic Health Center, the University of Minnesota Cancer Center was established in 1991 to bring together the university's cancer-related research, education, patient care and community outreach efforts. More than 300 individuals from a variety of disciplines are members of the Cancer Center.
The Masonic Cancer Research Building opened in 1996 and provides Cancer Center researchers a state-of-the-art environment for multidisciplinary research. The $20.4 million building was funded through private donations, including a $5million donation from the Masonic Cancer Center Fund.
The University of Minnesota has been a leader, nationally and internationally, in cancer research and patient care for decades. The Cancer Center is especially strong in the areas of leukemia, childhood cancers, bone tumors, women's cancers, head and neck cancers and cancer prevention. Noteworthy achievements by faculty include:
The first successful bone marrow transplant for immune deficiency and lymphoma
and a pioneer in the use of umbilical cord blood for transplants.
Major contributions to increasing the survival rate for children's cancers from 10
percent in 1959 to 70 percent today.
Pioneering the establishment of medical oncology as a formal discipline.
Discovering the cancer-preventing qualities of many foods, including cabbage and
related vegetables.
Being among the first to note the health hazards of cigarette smoking and the
addictiveness of nicotine.
Another example of Masonic Caring Concern....
Located on the grounds of the Masonic Home in Utica, New York, USA, The Masonic Medical Research Laboratory has been doing important work since its creation 40 years ago to conduct basic biomedical research, with an emphasis on heart disease.
The lab research has had nationwide and worldwide attention. The dozen international research scientists at the local lab pool their expertise to explore the many manifestations of heart disease. The Laboratory is also committed to providing education and training to basic scientists and clinical researchers who would perpetuate and extend the fight against disease. 84% of the Laboratory's budget goes to research and Masons from various parts of the United States and the world are pleased to participate in their support.
The Grand Lodge of Pennsylvania, USA has matching grants under which a local Lodge can donate or raise up to $5,000 for a local need and receive a matching amount from their Grand Lodge, effectively doubling the money involved. So far, lodges have used this program has helped programs such as Easter Seals, school citizenship awards, historical preservation projects, social service centers, YMCA's/YWCA's, boys and girls baseball leagues, American Red Cross, neighborhood playgrounds, police force K-9 dog, Make-A-Wish Foundation, Multiple Sclerosis Society, hospital volunteer services, post prom parties, D.A.R.E. programs, food banks, Acacia Fraternity, Leukemia Society, flood control projects, American Cancer Society, Big Brothers /Big Sisters, Scholarships, Boy Scouts, youth soccer leagues, Habitat for Humanity, band uniforms, purchase school computers, United Way, community center construction, volunteer fire departments, neo-natal care facilities, school fitness equipment, Special Olympics and more!
Amaranth Diabetes Foundation
Since the establishment of this Foundation in 1979, the Order of Amaranth has donated in excess of $3.0 million, as of June 1998, to diabetes research. The Foundation turns every dollar it collects over to the American Diabetes Association for research aimed at finding a cure for diabetes. These stellar efforts on the part of Amaranth members was recognized by the American Diabetes Association in 1996 when they presented the Order the "Charles H. Best Medal" for distinguished service in the cause of Diabetes.
The Organization of Triangles, Inc. is a fraternal organization located in the State of New York, for girls aged 11 through 21 years. For over seventy years, the Organization of Triangles, Inc., has been helping to prepare girls to build "A Finer American Womanhood". The Organization of Triangles, Inc., takes pride in its philanthropic identity. As Triangle teaches the virtues of respecting and loving mankind, charitable acts are but one of the many material embodim ents of this lesson. Triangle's main philanthropic focus is the manifestation of funds towards the aid of crippled children. However, Triangle girls spend hundreds of hours each year working in nursing homes, children's facilities, and fundraising to aid such worthy causes. They take pride in their accomplishments, and in return receive the gratification of aiding someone less fortunate than themselves.
Some charities which have been supported by Triangle include the Shriner's Childrens Hospitals, St. Jude's Fund for Children, Save the Children, Amnesty International, the Seeing-Eye Dog Fund for the Blind, as well as various nursing homes, including St. Alban's Veterans' Home, and the Franklin Nursing Home for the Elderly. Many activities for the Triangle incorporate visitations to such facilities, an example being serving a picnic lunch to theveterans on Memorial Day. Activities such as fundraising dinners and dances not only are fun for the girls and their friends, but do an invaluable service to the community.
The Grand Lodge of Tennessee sponsors an Organ Donor Awareness Program. Today some 60,000+ Americans await organ donors to help save their lives. This program, chaired by a heart transplant recipient and Past Master of his lodge, is being spread throughout Tennessee through the efforts of Masons and their Grand Lodge. We urge everyone to consider organ donor programs and congratulate Bro. Jones and his committee for their excellent work in this field! You can contact him about this wonderful program by clicking here and tell him that masonicinfo.com sent you!
This page will be growing and growing
just as Freemasonry's charity is growing and growing!
Excellent book by the way. If you feel so inclined, CS Lewis has many such books. "The Problem of Pain" and "Men Without Chests" are two that I have read often. The Screwtape letters are both funny and very thought provoking.
I agree completely, and that is why I opposed what LCMS Atlantic District President Benke did--and LCMS Synodical President Kieschnick approved--at the interfaith prayer service, "A Prayer for America."
It implies that all those religions point to the same god--OR, that all religions are OK, WHICHEVER god they point to. The problem can be expressed either way.
But the event isn't quite that simple. Of all the Christian leaders present, Benecke (if I spelled his name right) was the only one to pray out loud in the name of Jesus Christ. Which caused a lot of discomfort from the others on the podium with him. Also, he got permission to participate from his district president before hand.
It was Atlantic District President Benke, and he received permission from LCMS Synodical President Kieschnick. But the fact that he received permission from Kieschnick does not make it right.
Also, Benke was not the only one to mention Jesus. And nobody on the podium showed any "discomfort" with Benke afterwards; instead, they applauded and hugged him. Mentioning Jesus is OK, as long as you do not make Jesus the ONLY way, thus indicating that the other religions are wrong.
Mentioning Jesus does not make it right. For Benke did not make clear who Jesus is or what Jesus did. Benke said or did nothing to make clear that Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, is the only Savior from sin, and that all other roads are dead ends. In other words, Benke fed the notion prevalent that day and in our culture that Jesus is a fine option for Christians, but there are other ways that work for other people. It's the smorgasbord-of-spiriutality approach that these interfaith prayer services teach.
The "inside" part of it is that the reason it became such a charged issue was that those who blasted him for the event did so partially because of a recent Synod election.
I blasted Benke and Kieschnick because what they did was a disgrace to the gospel of Jesus Christ and it confirmed unbelievers in their false beliefs. I blasted--and still blast--Benke and Kieschnick because they covered up what they did with misinformation about what really happened. I blasted Benke and Kieschnick because Benke violated his 1998 public apology and assurance--required of him when the LCMS had a better synodical president--never to participate in interfaith prayer services again.
Personally, I am not that comfortable with a pastor praying with other religions, but in the way he did it he at least prayed to Jesus. So it was not the best thing, but not a huge deal.
It was, and still is, a huge deal. Kieschnick and his cohorts have used this situation to change the Synod.
I appreciate your thoughts. My Mother-In-Law is an old woman, of upper class Mexican descent. She is sure in her faith and a product of her environment. I respect her for her fervor and do not believe that it is my place to judge her, or anyone spiritually. I believe that the Good Lord and His Son, Jesus Christ can handle that job without breaking a sweat.
May GOD bless you and yours, as well.
Thanks for your comments, as that is why I pinged you. I am not that involved in things beyond the local district stuff, so to be honest did not realize that some in the Atlantic district were as odd as that letter seems to show.
I'd just like to point out that your statement contradicts infallibly defined Catholic dogma, which clearly states that the Catholic Church is the exclusive path to Heaven, expressed countless times by the Church and most clearly at the Council of Florence in Cantate Domino:
"It (The Catholic Church) firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart "into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels" [Matt. 25:41], unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church."
In fact, the proposition that there are many paths is what St. Paul rebuked the possessed woman for in Acts chaper 16. While the Douay Rheims is excellent, this is one instance in which it fails a proper translation, as it should read "a way" instead of "the way":
"And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain girl, having a pythonical spirit, met us, who brought to her masters much gain by divining. This same following Paul and us, cried out, saying: These men are the servants of the most high God, who preach unto you the way of salvation. And this she did many days. But Paul being grieved, turned, and said to the spirit: I command thee, in the name of Jesus Christ, to go out from her. And he went out the same hour."
A proper translation from the Greek should read "a way", and this is in fact why St. Paul rebuked the spirit, as it was engaged in the sophistry of the proposal of many paths. Once this is understood, the entire passage makes sense whereas it does not when rendered "the way", as there would have been no reason to rebuke her for saying it.
Lastly, Freemasonry seeks to suppress the dogma "outside the Church there is no salvation" as well as the teaching of the Church that the state is to be subject to the Church.
In total, your opinion expressed of "many paths" something of Freemasonry, but it is certain not an opinion which is any manner Catholic, as the opinion has been condemned infallibly by the Catholic Church.
Just a couple more nails in the coffin of a bad opinion... Pope Pius IX, Syllabus of Errors:
"(It is an error to say that) every man is free to embrace and profess that religion which, guided by the light of reason, he shall consider true, (or to say that) man may, in the observance of any religion whatever, find the way of eternal salvation, and arrive at eternal salvation, (or to say that) good hope at least is to be entertained of the eternal salvation of all those who are not at all in the true Church of Christ, (or to say that) Protestantism is nothing more than another form of the same true Christian religion, in which form it is given to please God equally as in the Catholic Church."
It was District President Benke who signed a public apology and assurance to the Synod in October of 1998, after he had participated in a previous interfaith prayer service in September of that year. That was under President Barry:
From the Office of The President
The Reverend Dr. A.L. Barry
A STATEMENT FROM THE OFFICE OF THE PRESIDENT OF THE LUTHERAN CHURCH - MISSOURI SYNOD
October 22, 1998
On September 9, 1998, the Rev. Dr. David Benke, President of the Atlantic District of the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod, participated in an interfaith prayer service at St. Patrick's Cathedral in New York. The service included representatives of non-Christian religions, and also representatives of Christian churches with which our Synod is not in fellowship.
On October 22, 1998, the President of The Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod, the Rev. Dr. A.L. Barry, met with President Benke in St. Louis, Missouri. Also present at the meeting were the Missouri Synod's First through Fifth Vice-Presidents, and the First Vice-President of the Atlantic District. As a result of this meeting, President Benke acknowledged that what he did, though well intended, was wrong. He indicated that his participation in an interfaith prayer service was a direct violation of the Holy Scriptures, the Lutheran Confessions, and consequently, a violation of the Missouri Synod's Constitution, Bylaws and doctrinal resolutions, and therefore, a violation of his duties as an elected officer of the Synod. President Benke made a sincere and public apology to the Synod for his actions in this connection. Finally, President Benke gave his assurance that he would not repeat this error in the future by participating as an officiant in any ecumenical service.
President Barry said, "With President Benke's apology, this incident has been properly addressed and resolved."
A STATEMENT OF APOLOGY BY PRESIDENT DAVID BENKE
On September 9, 1998, I participated in an interfaith prayer service for the poor entitled: "Lift Up the Poor With the Voices of Faith." The service included representatives of non-Christian religions, and also representatives of Christian churches with which our Synod is not in fellowship. My participation in this service was a direct violation of the Holy Scriptures and the Lutheran Confessions, and consequently, a violation of the Constitution, Bylaws and doctrinal resolutions of The Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod. I also recognize and admit that my participation in this interfaith prayer service was a violation of my duties and responsibilities as an elected officer of The Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod.
While well-intended, what I did was wrong. I therefore sincerely and publicly apologize to the Synod for my actions in this connection. I assure the Synod that I will not repeat this error in the future by participating as an officiant in ecumenical services.
(signed)
The Reverend Doctor David Benke
President, The Atlantic District
The Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod
October 22, 1998
(In signing this statement I understand that I am not abrogating my rights found in Synod's Handbook Bylaw 2.39c)
But Barry died in 2001 and Kieschnick was elected. Then Benke violated his promise and participated in an interfaith prayer service on September 23, 2001--with Kieschnick's approval.
This involves much more than mere "political games." It is a battle for the Gospel and for the historic confessional position of the Missouri Synod, which now has changed under Kieschnick.
I happen to have done the lead research in documenting and exposing the misdeeds and misinformation of Benke and Kieschnick. If you do a Google search for the terms:
+benke +henrickson
you will see a lot of results. Some may no longer be "up" on the Internet, but you can see them by clicking the Google "Cached" of that result. That is the case with the presentation on the subject I gave at a conference in 2003. If you Google for the words, within quotes:
"YANKEE STADIUM PRAYER SERVICE ANALYSIS"
You will find the link, but you need to click "Cached" to see it now.
If you like, I can send you the file by private e-mail.
BTW, today is the anniversary of LCMS DP Benke communing with an ELCA bishop at an ELCA church on September 14, 2001.
Expert as you claim to be, would the leaders and adherents of the Society of Saint Pius X (dishonoring his memory by misusing his name in service to their schism) be excluded from salvation by their schismatic status, under the definition you quoted from the 15th century Council of Florence????
Do you feel a need to govern God's judgment by telling Hm what He can and cannot do in respect to individual judgment and the eternal disposition of those to be judged?
Is it not the actual Catholic position that salvation is attained THROUGH the Roman Catholic (and Eastern Orthodox) Church and that salvation is available to many more than the formal members of Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy? And NOT to all Catholics or Eastern Orthodox since being in the state of grace is also necessary. AND that if God judges otherwise in any specific cases, we are in no position to disagree with God's judgment???? AND that the Church (Mystical Body of Christ) extends well beyond the mere borders of formal membership in the Roman Catholic Church to those known as "separated brethren"????
May I take for granted that you assert that each and every person who, after, say, the first Pentecost, died other than as a formal member of the Roman Catholic Church, regardless of moral merit, regardless of opportunity or lack thereof to even hear of Catholicism much less be baptized into it, has gone to hell, including the excommunicated schismatics such as SSPXers and Feeneyites?????
MWT, RG, NP: My apologies for those who claim to be Catholic.
Sorry, I meant to ping you to #296.
This is 2006. We have all had to do some painful growing up as the world has deteriorated around us since the 1920s. Fraternalism, yours and mine, is under general assault for all the wrong reasons. There is much that is good in each order and not very much that is morally neutral much less good about our common opponents. You seem not so bad and I assure you that I am not so bad either. We can agree where we can agree, agree to respectfully disagree on other matters, and be warriors in common cause for most of the things that matter.
I have no idea how the SSPX even enters this discussion.
"Expert as you claim to be, would the leaders and adherents of the Society of Saint Pius X (dishonoring his memory by misusing his name in service to their schism) be excluded from salvation by their schismatic status, under the definition you quoted from the 15th century Council of Florence????"
Those Catholics who would willingly and obstinately deny the infallibly defined dogma "outside the Church there is no salvation", after having been shown that this is indeed what the Church teaches, would be included under the heretics made reference to the Council of Florence's Cantate Domino quoted above. I'm not an SSPX priest nor do I assist at Masses provided by the SSPX. You would have to take those people on a case by case basis to find out if they in any way are in violation of unity with the Church. I don't have time for that, nor am I interested in doing or discussing that, as it does not relate to this discussion in any way whatsoever.
"Do you feel a need to govern God's judgment by telling Hm what He can and cannot do in respect to individual judgment and the eternal disposition of those to be judged?"
I'd simply deny that I have felt or expressed any such need, which is the truth, and point to the fact that I have only restated Catholic dogma. I'd then posit that you are misrepresenting your opposition in this discussion.
"Is it not the actual Catholic position that salvation is attained THROUGH the Roman Catholic (and Eastern Orthodox) Church and that salvation is available to many more than the formal members of Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy?"
No; "through the Church" is theologically incorrect.
"And NOT to all Catholics or Eastern Orthodox since being in the state of grace is also necessary. AND that if God judges otherwise in any specific cases, we are in no position to disagree with God's judgment????"
I'd simply ask, in response, who is any Catholic to disagree with the Church, which Church has clearly and infallibly defined that there is no salvation outside of Her?
"AND that the Church (Mystical Body of Christ) extends well beyond the mere borders of formal membership in the Roman Catholic Church to those known as "separated brethren"????
No, as Pope Leo XIII clearly stated in Mystici Corporis Christi, the Mystical Body of Christ and the Catholic Church are synonymous.
"May I take for granted that you assert that each and every person who, after, say, the first Pentecost, died other than as a formal member of the Roman Catholic Church, regardless of moral merit, regardless of opportunity or lack thereof to even hear of Catholicism much less be baptized into it, has gone to hell, including the excommunicated schismatics such as SSPXers and Feeneyites?????"
You may take it for granted that the Church has clearly and infallibly defined that all those who die outside the Ark, the Catholic Church, are lost for all eternity. They must first enter the Church, and remain within her until death, as the Church has most clearly stated.
"MWT, RG, NP: My apologies for those who claim to be Catholic."
Yes indeed. My apologies as well, as it seems not everyone wants to believe and profess the Catholic truth.
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