Archdiocese says sometimes ‘Catholic’ isn’t Catholic

Catholic Online ^ | October 23, 2006 | Maryangela Layman Román

[sitetest]

Dear Kolokotronis,

"Is it true that attendence at an Orthodox Divine Liturgy fulfills a Roman Catholic's Sunday Obligation?"

Yes, but.


sitetest

[Claud]

Is it true that attendence at an Orthodox Divine Liturgy fulfills a Roman Catholic's Sunday Obligation?

Mea culpa...I took the liberty of your question to look it up and it seems I was quite wrong:

http://www.jimmyakin.org/2005/03/orthodox_liturg.html

[Teófilo]

how in the world could an Eastern Orthodox Divine liturgy fulfill your obligation and an SSPX Mass cannot?

It doesn't; attending Eastern Orthodox Divine Liturgies does not fulfill the Sunday obligation.

Source

-Theo

[Dominick]

I am hesitant to start this again, the broken record nastiness of some non-catholic groups has no place on a conservative forum.

The Rule is valid Mass but illicit. Under extreme circumstances, you may fulfill your Mass obligation at Church not in perfect union.

If Mass was not offered within say 50 miles, then that may be extreme. No place in the United States, except for Death Valley or remote islands meets reasonable criterion for going to a non-Catholic service.

They include Old Catholic with SSPX, and this is also problematic, as the situations of Old Catholics and the SSPX are totally different.

The Church has said, specifically, that preference for the Tridentine Mass is not an extreme valid cause. The Church has also said that to be in union you may not hold the position that the current order of Mass is invalid.

Proponents of the independent bodies who benefit from the perpetuation of the various schisms often overstate the Church's leave to attend a non-catholic service. The so called "perpetual emergency" theory has been set aside many time here and elsewhere.

Setting the situation of the illicit masses aside; priests can't be incardinated by excommunicated Bishops, so they do not have faculties to give absolution or perform Marriages that are legitimate. A Bishop who is elevated without leave from the Holy see is automatically excommunicated and stripped of his faculties.

Short summary:

The Mass Obligation is a gray area, the Church has erred on mercy by stating there are extreme circumstances where a Mass at an illicit site would be acceptable. The Church makes it clear, absolution and Marriages can't be performed by priests who are not validly incardinated, and the Diocesan official is correct.

[sitetest]

Dear Claud (& Theo),

Hmmm... I think my previous paradigm regarding this question was flawed.

I'd always viewed it as, going to Divine Liturgy in an Orthodox Church would fulfill the Sunday Obligation if one found it difficult or impossible to find a Catholic Church.

But the author that you guys cite points out that if one can't find a Catholic Church, one is dispensed with the obligation. Which of course, is a principle with which every Catholic should be familiar.

I wonder, though, what if one goes to a part of the world where there generally are no Catholic churches, but there are generally Orthodox churches, and one goes for a good while, say some number of months or even years.

Does one just not go to Mass? Is one excused from the Sunday Obligation? Or does, at some point, the persistent lack of an available Catholic church eventually move one to a place where one should be attending Orthodox Divine Liturgy in the interim?


sitetest

[Kolokotronis]

" Mea culpa...I took the liberty of your question to look it up and it seems I was quite wrong:

http://www.jimmyakin.org/2005/03/orthodox_liturg.html"

That's what I thought. This is consistent with Orthodox teaching on the subject (though of course in reverse and recognizing that Orthodoxy does not look at attendence at the Divine Liturgy in a "canon law" type way).

[Cicero]

Your reply is exactly right, I believe.

The only thing I would add is that this chapel is called "St. Pius V." That leads me to wonder if the organization running it is not the Society of St. Pius V, rather than the Society of St. Pius X, and maybe this news report didn't get that.

I haven't kept up with recent developments, but the Society of St. Pius V broke away from SSPX some time ago. It was more extreme, and put more emphasis on the heretical sedevacantist position, I believe (the theory that the throne of St. Peter is empty, because the Pope is really an antipope since the time of Vatican II).

If so, then that would put this chapel a little further out on the edge of the valid. But probably the same rules would apply.

[VidMihi]

Don't be too quick to blame Ms. Decker. She is wrong because she has neither the seminary education nor the pastoral experience to know better. She is typical of those bishops choose to respond as spokespersons because no priest could say the misinformed things these people say and the well informed are reluctant to attack an innocent well meaning woman. The National Council of Bishops do the same thing having a "nun" as their spokes person saying things no self respecting bishop would dare to say because he knows better.

[Claud]

I wonder, though, what if one goes to a part of the world where there generally are no Catholic churches, but there are generally Orthodox churches, and one goes for a good while, say some number of months or even years.

I'm inclined to say that your hypothetical here would be ok canonically, and were I in such a situation I would probably do just as you said. Although given my last blunder, maybe I should just keep quiet and learn something! :)

[vladimir998]

Quote: "According to Bishop Sherman R. Mosley, “legally we are Roman since we were never excommunicated. There never was a bull of excommunication from Rome saying we were.” He added, to avoid confusion, the church uses the name Old Catholic Church of America, (OCCA)."

You're self-excommunicated Mosley! Wake up!

[mockingbyrd]

Wasn't this limited to cases when no Mass said in union with Rome was availble?

If two churches are across the street from one another, one in union with Rome, one schismatic you must attend the Church in union with Rome. There are plenty of churches in union with Rome in Milwaukie, so actually you do not fufill your Sunday obligation by attending a SSPX (with apologies to St. Pius) service.

[VidMihi]

Is it not amazing that a few people on this list are so concerned about "fulfilling the Sunday Obligation" when the vast majority of Catholics no longer go to Sunday Mass.(estimated at close to 70% today in contrast to forty years ago -before the young Fogeys took over- when the per centages were reversed)
Should we not rejoice that some are so committed to the Eucharist that they seek it extra canonically when for one of a variety of reason they choose not to go to their parish church - all know what some of the reasons are but lets skip that for now).

Do we still go to Mass for fear of going to hell if we miss one Sunday or do we so love the Eucharistic sacrifice that we seek it in a meaningful expression by a valid priest who might just happen to be married. Horrors! The Spirit gives life not the law - but even the law supports the validity of the Mass

- the bishop is mad because he is not in control which he could easily be if he took a pastoral rather than a legalistic approach.

[Dominick]

Should we not rejoice that some are so committed to the Eucharist that they seek it extra canonically when for one of a variety of reason they choose not to go to their parish church - all know what some of the reasons are but lets skip that for now).

It matters because the claim is often unjustly claimed that the Eucharist confected at a licit Church, the Parish Church, is in some way defective. They are not going due to a commitments to Christ, but for other motives. The Church says quite the opposite, not that the Eucharist there is defective, but the teachings there are defective.

In the case you mention, married Priests, there are validly married Priests in the Catholic Church. The reason these small "chapels" are banned is because they are focused on some smaller agenda of dissension, rather than the larger agenda of the Universal Church.

[trisham]

The Church says quite the opposite, not that the Eucharist there is defective, but the teachings there are defective.

***********

This makes sense to me.

[Maeve]

You might double check on the Polish National Catholic Church. They broke off communion with everyone in the Old Catholic and Anglican community and have been moving toward some form of reunion and reintegration into the Catholic Church. I do recall in Chicago that there was some limited form of intercommunion with the Polish National Catholic Church. The upshot of this is that the PNCC is on its way back toward Rome. (I'm no expert on this, but I thought I should pass on what I know.)

[Cheverus]

I wouldn't be suprised if this was being worked on behind the scenes. Though they have one or two Theological problems and a load of Ecclesiological issues to resolve, in the grand sceme they aren't too far off.

For example I remember reading in Touchstone about three years ago this article.

http://touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=17-04-056-r

About their expulsion from the Union of Utrecht over (suprise, suprise) upholding an all male presbyterate and the homosexual thing.

[Mershon]

It is true that a Catholic may fulfill his Sunday obligation at the Divine Liturgy of the Eastern Orthodox. Unless in danger of death, he should not receive communion, but he can strictly fulfill his Sunday obligation.

[Maeve]

Thanks for the link. From that article:

The PNCC, whose dialogue with the Roman Catholic Church resulted in an arrangement on limited inter-communion (1996), does not support sacramental sharing with ecclesial communities that do not stand in the Apostolic Succession.

[Jaded]

Even if the one in union with Rome is celebrated by a flaming liberal on the order of Mahoney?

[mockingbyrd]

It's about substance over style. An illicit Mass, no matter how reverently said, is still an insult to Christ and a greater insult than an irreverently said Mass in communion with Christ's Church.