Posted on 11/13/2006 11:01:10 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg
I believe that the Bible is God's inspired word, and is inerrant. Since God does not need the Bible Himself, I assume that He wrote it for the benefit of others, namely humans. Of those humans, the Bible says that to the lost the teachings of the Bible are nonsense, and are therefore of no use. So, I conclude that the Bible was written for the benefit of Christians.
This means that everything in the Bible applies to me (at the very least for educational purposes), if I am a Christian. I first know I am a Christian because God has given me the faith to know it. What is faith if a Christian cannot know he is a Christian? More objectively, the Bible describes in very great detail what a Christian looks like, what he believes, how he thinks, what he does, and says. Upon self-examination, I am satisfied that I look very much like a Christian, including the fact that I still sin.
Now, if I may have certainty that I am a Christian, and if I may also know that the Bible was written for my benefit, then I think it is fair for me to believe that the assurance verses apply to me. They were not written for the benefit of the reprobate, they were written for the benefit of us. So, I simply accept them with all the thanks I can muster in gratitude to God. He didn't have to give them to us, but He chose to. Praise God for it. Besides, of what value to any Christian are those verses if no one can know if they mean anything for him personally? Why did God include them?
That seems rather circular. (Maybe Gamecock will bless us with his colorful illustration.) The assurance verses apply to you, because you are not reprobate; your certainty that you are not reprobate lies in the assurance verses.
The assurance verses apply to the elect of God. You cannot infallibly know you are among the elect of God until you know that you have the grace of final perseverance; you cannot (without a special revelation) infallibly know that until it happens. (I say "infallibly" because you can certainly have a moral assurance or certitude sustained by the virtue of hope.)
But all those Christians who later apostasize think they know that they have faith when in fact they do not really know that they have faith. So how do you know you are not one of those people who thinks he knows that he has faith when in fact he does not really know that he has faith? In other words, how do you know that you are not an apostate-to-be? (Appealing to the 'assurance verses' here would simply beg the question, because it would assume precisely what you are trying to prove, namely, that the 'assurance verses' apply to you.)
-A8
Well, that isn't what I said. You copied my summation paragraph. I earlier explained how I arrived at that point. I asserted that the Bible is inerrant and was written only for the benefit of Christians, therefore it applies to all Christians. In addition, I asserted that I may be certain of my own Christianity both from a spiritual perspective, and from an objective perspective based on what the inerrant Bible tells us about what Christians look like (not the assurance verses). From here, I said that if I may know that I am Christian, and I may know that the Bible was written for the benefit of Christians, then the assurance verses, (along with all other verses) must be for my benefit.
However, if I cannot know whether these verses apply to me, then what possible good are they to anyone? What is taught here? If no one may actually rightfully have assurance, then there is no point to assurance verses, is there? For Paul's part (and assuming a non works-based salvation model), he wrote his assurance verses to a specific audience at the time. What did he want them to think?
The assurance verses apply to the elect of God. You cannot infallibly know you are among the elect of God until you know that you have the grace of final perseverance ...
I believe only God is infallible, so I would never put my knowledge on a par with His. However, I do believe I can have all the assurance a human can have. I am not sure how anyone could have the knowledge of the "grace of final perseverance" (if I am understanding what you are saying) since with his last dying thought he could presumably blow the whole thing. Thankfully, along with the raft of assurance verses is another raft of perseverance verses, wherein God promises that His elect will indeed persevere. Some of those verses serve both purposes.
Well, I suppose this question boils down to how I would distinguish myself from the next guy who might have the same knowledge I do and says the same things I say, but then he falls away permanently. I do not think it is possible to "prove" that difference to you or anyone else. Only God and I know what my faith truly is. So, I can report to you things like I know that God has actively worked in my life since my conversion, and that those workings directly match what is foretold in the Bible for all Christians, but you can't "know" it the way I "know" it. The same is true in reverse.
We can only know for sure what is in our own hearts. I personally have never known someone who "convinced" me he was a Christian and then later fell away permanently. That is not at all to say that very convincing people have never fallen away, of course that has happened, but I can't compare what the heart of a false believer looks like (from the outside) to my own through my experience.
From a practical standpoint, how does it benefit me as a Christian to disregard how the assurance and perseverance verses speak personally to me? One possibility would be if they "moved" me to sloth, but they do not because I am well aware of the multitudes of other verses that cover the subject. So, if my "objective" and honest reading of those verses is the Reformed view, then why should I reject that? They bolster my faith and thanksgiving to God.
Now, if it turns out that I really am a pretender, then by my own beliefs there is still nothing I could ever do to change that. God would have been using me in my pretender role all along for His purposes. Glory be to God for that if it was true. This is partly why I can have assurance. WHATEVER the truth is, it's all in God's hands, not mine. Therefore, I will spend my life living with assurance in Christ and His promises, as I understand them, and not worry about whether I am a pretender. Either way, it will be to God's glory, and that is all I could ever truly want.
If you knew you were elect, you would never acknowledge the possibility that it could turn out that you are really a pretender. Therefore, since you don't know whether you are elect, you don't know now that on Judgment Day you will be welcomed into His Kingdom.
-A8
What about the legalism Christ has commanded of you? Are those that repeat Christ's words, ie " Go and sin no more" not benefiting all?
. It is not worth anything as an "assurance verse" (in the Calvinistic sense of assurance) since you don't know whether you are elect, therefore you don't know whether you are one of those whom the Father has given to Christ.
In response to the idea that you can't truly know you are of the elect I say pray. Every time I've had doubts I've prayed and a calm assurance came over me.
Are you a Mormon? They all talk like this. So do charismatics. That's the gnostic move: base everything on your subjective internal experience. Apparently, in your opinion, no apostates-to-be get warm assurance fuzzies when they pray about whether they are elect.
In John 6:37 Jesus is not putting any strings on those who come to him. Our conduct, thinking and relationship with God are changed due to our being one of the elect.
Have you never experienced fellow [seeming] believers who later apostasized? You seem to be clueless about their existence. Many apostates have undergone major changes in conduct and thinking when becoming Christian, only to lose their faith later on.
-A8
Then it is Providential that I have already died and my life is hid with Christ in God.
post tenebras lux,
-A8
I think that's an accurate description of what I went through, but it didn't take too long before God grabbed me by the scruff of the neck and placed me firmly on his pronomian, covenantal, higher ground.
Way back when, someone remarked that true freedom would come when the last monarch was strangled by the entrails of the last priest. Can't remember who that quote is from, but I think it dates back a few centuries. A quote like that emerges because of solid things. When you read the history of Christianity, up until the Reformation occurred, you can't help but notice how suffused God became in the rules and relics industry. The relics industry comprised a pretty decent percentage of the gross national product. It wasn't just about piety. Calvin was right, the mind is an idol factory, beginning and ending with idolization of self: "After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Gal.3:3.
Some good men who, in grievous error, would impose the law as a rule of life (means of salvation) for the believer mean very well by it (for they strive to be pious); but the whole principle is false. The law, instead of being a rule of life, is necessarily a rule of death to one who has a sin nature. Far from being a delivering power, it can only condemn such. Far from being a means of holiness, it is, in fact, and according to Paul, "the strength of sin" (I Cor. 15:56). - W. Kelly
Thank you! I hope the Sox come back next year too. They have a great team. I'd love to see an I-55 series. :)
In response to the idea that you can't truly know you are of the elect I say pray. Every time I've had doubts I've prayed and a calm assurance came over me.
I agree. Occasionally over the years I have caught myself over-anaylizing, and when that has happened, prayer has always worked. God gave us minds to use, and of course sometimes we will get a little off track. But just like the Bible says, God always brings His elect back.
It's true that we cannot know what is really in someone's heart... unless God explicitly tells us, as in the case of Simon the sorceror in Acts 8. That chapter tells us "Simon himself believed and was baptized." Not that he claimed to believe, or seemed to believe, but that he DID believe & was baptized. Yet according to Peter, Simon is subsequently in a condemned state when he addresses him in verses 20-23.
If you knew you were elect, you would never acknowledge the possibility that it could turn out that you are really a pretender. Therefore, since you don't know whether you are elect, you don't know now that on Judgment Day you will be welcomed into His Kingdom.
I am acknowledging no such thing. :) I am simply using a similar technique that I sometimes use while witnessing. Sometimes I will adopt the lost person's POV and suppose that there is no God. From that starting point, I then try to get them to understand why that doesn't make sense. For the intended purpose I am not acknowledging the possibility that God doesn't exist. It is similar here. I was saying that even in the worst case scenario, supposing that you were correct about the possibility, it would have no effect on how I live my life or what my beliefs are. My "attempt" was to show that it makes no sense to not have assurance when there is clearly Biblical support for it AND (if you do not have a works-based salvation model) it shouldn't affect how you live your life either way. My assurance is a benefit in my life and helps me to be closer to God. As I asked, what is the benefit to your view? What do you do differently because you are unsure?
Thanks. That's an interesting thought.
Christians do not obey Christ out of a ceremonial legalism. We obey Christ out of a moral compulsion which has been given to us by His atonement.
Consider there's a stop sign along a country road. It's midnight and no one is around. The reprobate will run the stop sign without fear of legal retribution simply because none is around at the time.
The man acquitted by Christ will stop at the stop sign because his heart has been changed to obey a moral principal higher than expediency.
Christ's commandments are not legalisms; they are reminders of our status before God -- do this because you have been redeemed.
Ping to 36. I'm waaay behind. 8~)
And if that is God's choice, then I deserve it. So do you. So does the Doc.
We ALL deserve Hell, every single one of us. It's only by God's grace that ANY of us might not get what we deserve.
There but for the grace of God go you and I.
I think if you spent more time actually reading Scripture rather than interrogating it, you'd understand more fully. To question those "assurance verses" is to question the work of the Holy Spirit within you.
"A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh." -- Ezekiel 36:26
If a man is compelled to read the Bible and obey God, it is because he is no longer living for himself. Christ lives within him.
"But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law." -- Galatians 5:18"And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father." -- Galatians 4:6
To question the assurance of our salvation, as given us in Scripture by God, is to deny Christ on the cross. Did He die for your sins? Did He rise from the dead? Is it all true?
"For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified." -- Hebrews 10:14
How do we know we are sanctified? We look around and observe the fruits of our lives.
(For the fruit of the spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;) Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord." -- Ephesians 5:8-10"For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:
"Proving" His grace; not earning it.
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