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To: Forest Keeper
Now, if I may have certainty that I am a Christian, and if I may also know that the Bible was written for my benefit, then I think it is fair for me to believe that the assurance verses apply to me. They were not written for the benefit of the reprobate, they were written for the benefit of us.

That seems rather circular. (Maybe Gamecock will bless us with his colorful illustration.) The assurance verses apply to you, because you are not reprobate; your certainty that you are not reprobate lies in the assurance verses.

The assurance verses apply to the elect of God. You cannot infallibly know you are among the elect of God until you know that you have the grace of final perseverance; you cannot (without a special revelation) infallibly know that until it happens. (I say "infallibly" because you can certainly have a moral assurance or certitude sustained by the virtue of hope.)

22 posted on 11/14/2006 10:28:46 PM PST by Campion ("I am so tired of you, liberal church in America" -- Mother Angelica, 1993)
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To: Campion
That seems rather circular. ... The assurance verses apply to you, because you are not reprobate; your certainty that you are not reprobate lies in the assurance verses.

Well, that isn't what I said. You copied my summation paragraph. I earlier explained how I arrived at that point. I asserted that the Bible is inerrant and was written only for the benefit of Christians, therefore it applies to all Christians. In addition, I asserted that I may be certain of my own Christianity both from a spiritual perspective, and from an objective perspective based on what the inerrant Bible tells us about what Christians look like (not the assurance verses). From here, I said that if I may know that I am Christian, and I may know that the Bible was written for the benefit of Christians, then the assurance verses, (along with all other verses) must be for my benefit.

However, if I cannot know whether these verses apply to me, then what possible good are they to anyone? What is taught here? If no one may actually rightfully have assurance, then there is no point to assurance verses, is there? For Paul's part (and assuming a non works-based salvation model), he wrote his assurance verses to a specific audience at the time. What did he want them to think?

The assurance verses apply to the elect of God. You cannot infallibly know you are among the elect of God until you know that you have the grace of final perseverance ...

I believe only God is infallible, so I would never put my knowledge on a par with His. However, I do believe I can have all the assurance a human can have. I am not sure how anyone could have the knowledge of the "grace of final perseverance" (if I am understanding what you are saying) since with his last dying thought he could presumably blow the whole thing. Thankfully, along with the raft of assurance verses is another raft of perseverance verses, wherein God promises that His elect will indeed persevere. Some of those verses serve both purposes.

24 posted on 11/14/2006 11:30:17 PM PST by Forest Keeper
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