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To: adiaireton8; AlbionGirl; wmfights; Ottofire; HarleyD; 1000 silverlings; blue-duncan; Gamecock
Knowing whom you have believed is not the same as knowing that you are elect. Even those who will eventually fall away know whom they have believed

Respectfully, you are wrong. To truly know Christ is to be of Christ, to have been born of God.

"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him...

For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith." -- 1 John 5:1,4

What man would deny Christ if he believed Him to be God? Those who fall away do not believe in the Trinity or in His divinity. Ask them. I have yet to find a non-believer who accepts the resurrection as fact. They have not been given eyes to see or ears to hear or a new heart with which to understand and believe.

Is that the best you can do??

To rest secure in His words that those who are His will believe in His name and follow Him and never be lost? Yes, that works for me.

"And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day." -- John 6:35-40

"And even to your old age I am he; and even to hoar hairs will I carry you: I have made, and I will bear; even I will carry, and will deliver you." -- Isaiah 46:4

"Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ" -- Philippians 1:6

So relax, A8. God wants you confident that Christ has overcome the world. All the legalism of men does not benefit you one iota. Christ has redeemed you. No church nor magisterium nor men in robes can erase what God has given.

(All this is assuming, of course, you believe in the Trinitarian God of all creation and in Jesus Christ's perfect and complete atonement on the cross for every sin you have ever or will ever commit.)

If not, I guess you'll continue to worry and try to find something better.

16 posted on 11/14/2006 1:54:53 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
" I have yet to find a non-believer who accepts the resurrection as fact."
____________________________

So true Jesus was either a lunatic who died on the cross, or he was who he said he was, the son of God.
17 posted on 11/14/2006 3:10:54 PM PST by wmfights (Psalm : 27)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
To truly know Christ is to be of Christ, to have been born of God.

Reformed folks never tire of this equivocation.

Q. How do you know that you are elect?

A. Because we know Christ.

Q. But others who seemed just like yourselves to know Christ, fell away.

A. Right, but they did not really *know* Christ.

Q. So how do you know that your "really *know*" Christ?

A. Because we have "faith and repentance".

Q. But those who fell away sure seemed to have "faith and repentance".

A. Right, but they did not *really* have "faith and repentance".

Q. Ok, so how you know that you *really* have "faith and repentance"?

A. Because "To truly know Christ is to be of Christ".

So when you when you want to assure yourselves that you are elect, you apply all these verses to yourselves. But then when people fall away, these same verses by which you assured the apostates-to-be that they were elect, you then say that these verses didn't ever apply to the apostates. But then you always ignore the fact that this admission undermines your justification for presently using these verses to assure yourselves that you are not an apostate-to-be.

-A8

18 posted on 11/14/2006 8:06:53 PM PST by adiaireton8 ("There is no greater evil one can suffer than to hate reasonable discourse." - Plato, Phaedo 89d)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; adiaireton8; wmfights
"Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ" -- Philippians 1:6

A great series, Dr. E. ! Thanks for posting. :)

There are tons of "assurance" verses in the Bible (the above being among my favorites). I can understand why a Catholic may have no assurance, (A8, I don't know if you are Catholic or not), because all of the assurance verses have been interpreted away by the hierarchy and salvation is partially dependent on the Church itself. But for anyone else, I don't understand how it profits a person to toss the assurance verses in favor of doubt and uncertainty. It would make sense if one admitted to believing in a works-based salvation, but even the Catholics deny that. I don't understand how a Christian life on earth is enhanced by questioning whether God really meant what He said in the Bible over and over and over again.

19 posted on 11/14/2006 8:23:41 PM PST by Forest Keeper
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
All the legalism of men does not benefit you one iota. Christ has redeemed you

What about the legalism Christ has commanded of you? Are those that repeat Christ's words, ie " Go and sin no more" not benefiting all?

28 posted on 11/15/2006 6:21:58 AM PST by sausageseller (Look out for the jackbooted spelling police. There! Everywhere!(revised cause the "man" accosted me!)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
One last thing on the pit of legalism. Back on the Luther/Erasmus thread, I quoted a Pastor who had remarked that once a person is burned by legalism, he jumps out of the legalism ditch, breathes the Freedom that is in Christ, goes a bit hogwild (not in sin, but in temperment, that is bucking any philosophical demands) and hurls himself into the anti-nomian ditch. He also remarked that how long one remained there would depend on how badly he had been burned by legalism.

I think that's an accurate description of what I went through, but it didn't take too long before God grabbed me by the scruff of the neck and placed me firmly on his pronomian, covenantal, higher ground.

Way back when, someone remarked that true freedom would come when the last monarch was strangled by the entrails of the last priest. Can't remember who that quote is from, but I think it dates back a few centuries. A quote like that emerges because of solid things. When you read the history of Christianity, up until the Reformation occurred, you can't help but notice how suffused God became in the rules and relics industry. The relics industry comprised a pretty decent percentage of the gross national product. It wasn't just about piety. Calvin was right, the mind is an idol factory, beginning and ending with idolization of self: "After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Gal.3:3.

Some good men who, in grievous error, would impose the law as a rule of life (means of salvation) for the believer mean very well by it (for they strive to be pious); but the whole principle is false. The law, instead of being a rule of life, is necessarily a rule of death to one who has a sin nature. Far from being a delivering power, it can only condemn such. Far from being a means of holiness, it is, in fact, and according to Paul, "the strength of sin" (I Cor. 15:56). - W. Kelly

32 posted on 11/15/2006 8:32:31 AM PST by AlbionGirl
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