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To: adiaireton8; Dr. Eckleburg; wmfights
But, I don't believe things merely because they have pragmatic benefits; I believe things because they are true. And what I am asking you is how you now know for sure that it is true that at the Final Judgment you will be received into heaven.

Well, I "thought" I had explained this in my 21. :) So, I'm not sure what you are looking for. I believe that the Bible is inerrantly true. The Bible is clear that those with true faith will be saved. It says that all of them will, not just "some" who have true faith. (As you know, the Bible distinguishes between those with true faith and those with false faith in places such as James 2:14.)

I claim to have true faith for a couple of reasons. One is that I know with what earnestness I prayed for Christ to come into my life. I compare that experience to what I have later learned through reading the prayers/testimonies of other Biblical figures, whom we all accept as true believers, and I am satisfied that my experience was real.

Another reason is that I have seen the effect my conversion has had on my life. I can testify that my thoughts and actions have changed and continue to change. I do and think things now that never would have occurred to me as an unbeliever. While I intellectually agree with everything in the Bible, even today there is much in the Bible that goes directly against what I want, that is, my sin nature. However, just as the Bible predicts, this list is getting smaller and smaller as I continue to be sanctified by the sole work of God. IOW, everything that has happened to me since my salvation is perfectly described in the Bible, including when I blow it. That tells me that I "look" like a saved Christian.

Now, you may well disagree with me about the interpretation of the passages I am referencing, but they are a basis of my assurance. Objectively, everything in the Bible about saved people "fits" so I am assured I am one of them. Subjectively, I testify to the presence of God actively working in my life to bring me closer to Him. He has put hunger in my heart to study His word when I am certain that it never would have been there were it left up to me. While God certainly uses the reprobate, I can't imagine He would do for me spiritually what He has already done, if His intention was to pull the rug out someday. In fact, the Bible promises that He won't. Therefore, from my perspective, if God did pull the rug out on me, then it would invalidate the Bible, an impossibility and another reason for assurance.

76 posted on 11/15/2006 1:41:17 PM PST by Forest Keeper
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To: Forest Keeper
Well, I "thought" I had explained this in my 21. :) So, I'm not sure what you are looking for. I believe that the Bible is inerrantly true. The Bible is clear that those with true faith will be saved. It says that all of them will, not just "some" who have true faith. (As you know, the Bible distinguishes between those with true faith and those with false faith in places such as James 2:14.)

I'm with you so far.

I claim to have true faith for a couple of reasons. One is that I know with what earnestness I prayed for Christ to come into my life. I compare that experience to what I have later learned through reading the prayers/testimonies of other Biblical figures, whom we all accept as true believers, and I am satisfied that my experience was real.

In order for this to be evidence that you have truth faith rather than false faith, you would have to know that those with false faith did not have the earnestness that you had(have). But you don't know that. So that "reason" is no evidence at all.

Another reason is that I have seen the effect my conversion has had on my life. I can testify that my thoughts and actions have changed and continue to change. I do and think things now that never would have occurred to me as an unbeliever. While I intellectually agree with everything in the Bible, even today there is much in the Bible that goes directly against what I want, that is, my sin nature. However, just as the Bible predicts, this list is getting smaller and smaller as I continue to be sanctified by the sole work of God. IOW, everything that has happened to me since my salvation is perfectly described in the Bible, including when I blow it. That tells me that I "look" like a saved Christian.

Again, in order for this to be evidence that you have truth faith rather than false faith, you would have to know that those with false faith did not have these effects in their lives. But you don't know that. In fact, there is good reason to believe the opposite, for there are many cases of people who had great faith, with all those effects, and yet fell away at the end. Think of the great church father Tertullian for example. So that "reason" is no evidence at all.

Now, you may well disagree with me about the interpretation of the passages I am referencing, but they are a basis of my assurance. Objectively, everything in the Bible about saved people "fits" so I am assured I am one of them.

The problem with this claim is that objectively, everything in the Bible about saved people also fits many (if not most) apostates-to-be, and therefore that undercuts the basis for assurance you are attempting to derive from these passages.

Subjectively, I testify to the presence of God actively working in my life to bring me closer to Him. He has put hunger in my heart to study His word when I am certain that it never would have been there were it left up to me. While God certainly uses the reprobate, I can't imagine He would do for me spiritually what He has already done, if His intention was to pull the rug out someday.

Wow. Have you ever known serious believers who went apostate? It seems that you have not. I have. If you ever do have an experience the apostasy of someone you know well who you would bet your right arm is a genuine believer, it is going to undermine your reason (in your paragraph directly above).

In fact, the Bible promises that He won't.

Of course. But that promise doesn't do any good to those who don't know whether they are elect. So appealing to the promise just begs the question (i.e. assumes precisely what you are trying to show).

Therefore, from my perspective, if God did pull the rug out on me, then it would invalidate the Bible, an impossibility ....

Of course. But, if it turned out that are an apostate-to-be, and are not elect, then if when you fall away, this wouldn't invalidate the Bible in the least, since all those 'assurance verses' never applied to you in the first place.

-A8

80 posted on 11/15/2006 2:10:45 PM PST by adiaireton8 ("There is no greater evil one can suffer than to hate reasonable discourse." - Plato, Phaedo 89d)
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