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The History of Eucharistic Adoration Development of Doctrine in the Catholic Church
http://www.therealpresence.org/archives/Eucharist/Eucharist_017.htm ^ | unknown | Fr. John A. Hardon

Posted on 11/21/2006 1:47:27 PM PST by stfassisi

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To: Pyro7480

Fr. John Hardon, pray for us.


21 posted on 11/22/2006 9:20:14 PM PST by Maeve (St. Maroun, St. Charbel, St. Rafqa and all Maronite saints, pray for ua and for the whole world.)
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To: stfassisi

there sure is a lot of interpretation in all of this. Looks like it took some folks 14-1500 years to decide what they thought too, all the while the explanations are getting longer. Lots of words for a divine concept eh?


22 posted on 11/22/2006 9:22:17 PM PST by Phil Southern (Dirt is for growin' taters, asphault is for racin')
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To: Uncle Chip
From the Bible:


"The best, the surest , and the most effective way of establishing everlasting peace on the face of the earth is through the great power of perpetual adoration of the Blessed Sacrament." -- Pope John Paul II


"Could you not watch one hour?" -- Mark 14:37


23 posted on 11/22/2006 9:44:14 PM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Uncle Chip
But Paul does not say that we are proclaiming the Lord's deaths[plural]. Paul says "death"[singular] not "deaths"[plural]. The Catholic position is that Jesus is sacrificed every day at every mass at every Catholic Church on the globe which means "deaths"[plural] and a lot of them.

No, the Catholic Church does not believe nor does she teach that Christ is sacrificed anew at each Mass.

The Church believes and teaches that at each Mass the very same, one time Sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross is made present upon the altar and is offered to the Father for the forgiveness of our sins.

From the 1992 Catechism of the Catholic Church:

1362 The Eucharist is the memorial of Christ's Passover, the making present and the sacramental offering of his unique sacrifice, in the liturgy of the Church which is his Body. In all the Eucharistic Prayers we find after the words of institution a prayer called the anamnesis or memorial.

1363 In the sense of Sacred Scripture the memorial is not merely the recollection of past events but the proclamation of the mighty works wrought by God for men.[182] In the liturgical celebration of these events, they become in a certain way present and real. This is how Israel understands its liberation from Egypt: every time Passover is celebrated, the Exodus events are made present to the memory of believers so that they may conform their lives to them.

1364 In the New Testament, the memorial takes on new meaning. When the Church celebrates the Eucharist, she commemorates Christ's Passover, and it is made present the sacrifice Christ offered once for all on the cross remains ever present.[183] "As often as the sacrifice of the Cross by which 'Christ our Pasch has been sacrificed' is celebrated on the altar, the work of our redemption is carried out."[184]

1365 Because it is the memorial of Christ's Passover, the Eucharist is also a sacrifice. The sacrificial character of the Eucharist is manifested in the very words of institution: "This is my body which is given for you" and "This cup which is poured out for you is the New Covenant in my blood."[185] In the Eucharist Christ gives us the very body which he gave up for us on the cross, the very blood which he "poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins."[186]

1366 The Eucharist is thus a sacrifice because it re-presents (makes present) the sacrifice of the cross, because it is its memorial and because it applies its fruit: [Christ], our Lord and God, was once and for all to offer himself to God the Father by his death on the altar of the cross, to accomplish there an everlasting redemption. But because his priesthood was not to end with his death, at the Last Supper "on the night when he was betrayed," [he wanted] to leave to his beloved spouse the Church a visible sacrifice (as the nature of man demands) by which the bloody sacrifice which he was to accomplish once for all on the cross would be re-presented, its memory perpetuated until the end of the world, and its salutary power be applied to the forgiveness of the sins we daily commit.[187]

1367 The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice: "The victim is one and the same: the same now offers through the ministry of priests, who then offered himself on the cross; only the manner of offering is different." "In this divine sacrifice which is celebrated in the Mass, the same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross is contained and is offered in an unbloody manner."[188]

http://www.christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/euch1.html#MEMORIAL

But Paul does not say that we are proclaiming the Lord's deaths[plural]. Paul says "death"[singular] not "deaths"[plural].

andPaul says that we are proclaiming a single event, a single death that happened only once in history --- the Lord's death[singular] on Calvary, period.

Since it is the same Sacrifice and the same Victim offered at each Mass, the Church is proclaiming (making present) the Lord's death [singular].

And the words: "until he comes" follow in that same verse, even in my Catholic Family Bible, indicating clearly that Jesus is not present right there in the bread and wine. The very act of partaking of the bread and wine indicates that He is not present. His absence from our presence because of His death on Calvary is what is being proclaimed until the day when returns as He promised.

First, Jesus "absence" in not due to His death upon the Cross. Remember, He rose again on the third day and was physically present for forty days until His ascension into Heaven. If He is absent, then how can He be our mediator to the Father? How could He be the one path to Heaven if He is not around?

Yet, if He is absent from us, then what did He mean when He said that He would be with us until the end of the world?

If He meant it only in an ethereal way, then He is only present in spirit, which could give the appearance of absence, but He would be present in an intangible way. ie. "Where two or three are gathered in My Name I am in their midst."

However, when He took bread and said "This is My Body", and took wine and said "This is My Blood", He gave us the means so that He could continue to be physically present with us, Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity until the end of the world.

Second, "The very act of partaking of the bread and wine indicates that He is not present." would be true if it is only bread and wine.

However, the bread and wine become the Body and Blood of Our Lord. St. Paul tells us in verses 24 "And giving thanks, broke, (bread) and said: Take ye, and eat: this is my body, which shall be delivered for you: this do for the commemoration of me." Notice that the bread is Christ's Body which shall be delivered up. It is not a piece of bread to be delivered up, but the Body of Jesus Himself.

and 25 In like manner also the chalice, after he had supped, saying: This chalice is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as often as you shall drink, for the commemoration of me." Again we see that the wine contained in the cup is the Blood that will seal the new testament.

and verse 27 "Therefore whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord." Again, St. Paul equates the bread to the Lord's Body and the wine to the Blood. If the bread is not His Body and the wine is not His Blood, then eating a piece of bread or drinking a cup of wine is nothing more than an ordinary act, which would be morally neutral.

So the very act of partaking in the bread and wine, does indicate that Jesus is truly present Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity.

As far as "eating and drinking unworthily", it is those who demean the singular death of Jesus on Calvary and its efficacy who are eating and drinking unworthily. They are the ones who demean the value of that one death by their words and deeds to the demeaning effect that His one sacrifice was not enough to save sinners but needs to be followed up again and again day after day place after place ad infinitum without end. They are the ones who do not see the "worth" in that one singular death 2000 years ago, but continue to eat and drink unworthily. Food for thought.

St. Paul does not say that at all. Here are his words: "27 Therefore whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord. 28 But let a man prove himself: and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of the chalice. 29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh judgment to himself, not discerning the body of the Lord."

What St. Paul is saying here is 1) Those who do not belive that the bread is the Body and the wine is the Blood of Our Lord, then he brings judgement upon themselves. 2) That those in grave, unrepented sin bring judgement upon themselves.

Your final paragraph would apply only if an individual believes that at every Mass or every Non-Catholic Communion Service that Jesus is re-sacrificed. However, the Mass does not re-sacrifice Our Lord over and over, nor does a Non-Catholic Communion Service.

24 posted on 11/22/2006 11:47:49 PM PST by pipeorganman
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To: adiaireton8
But Paul in I Corinthians 11:26 tells us that Communion is a memorial proclaiming the death of Jesus "until He comes". Therefore Jesus isn't present in the bread or wine.

That is a non sequitur, because the Second Coming is not the same kind of coming as transubstantiation.

In your theology it sure is. Don't Catholics confess at Communion that this wafer is the "body, blood, soul, and divinity" of Christ? You believe that He is present, not just in spirit, but physically and bodily in the elements.

25 posted on 11/23/2006 4:24:10 AM PST by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
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To: Running On Empty
He assented, and when they were at table, they recognized Him at the breaking of the bread", at which time He disappeared. Yet, He remained with them, in the breaking of the bread.

Now, which was it? Did He disappear or did He remain with them? Luke says that He disappeared out of their sight. He does not say that He morphed Himself into the loaf of bread in front of them. Think about it.

26 posted on 11/23/2006 4:31:09 AM PST by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
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To: adiaireton8
The Catholic position is indeed that in the mass Jesus is offered in sacrifice every day around the world, but that sacrifice is the one sacrifice (and therefore only one death) that occurred on Calvary. The mass is a participation in Christ's sacrifice on Calvary, not a re-sacrifice.

So then it is a "memorial", right? It is done in "remembrance" of Him, right? It is a proclamation in remembrance of His one and only sacrificial death on Calvary, right?. And nothing more, right? The bread and wine are just bread and wine taken in remembrance, right? They are not the actual body and blood from the sacrifice of the Mass, under the appearance of bread and wine, of course, right? or wrong?

27 posted on 11/23/2006 4:49:32 AM PST by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
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To: Salvation
"The best, the surest , and the most effective way of establishing everlasting peace on the face of the earth is through the great power of perpetual adoration of the Blessed Sacrament." -- Pope John Paul II

Exodus 20:4-5: "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in the heaven above, that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them . . . "

That is called: "IDOLATRY" ----

28 posted on 11/23/2006 4:59:40 AM PST by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
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To: pipeorganman
Thanks for posting all of that. It definitely took some time and some thought, But I have some questions:

1]When Jesus lifted up the bread and the cup of wine, He said "This is my body, This is my blood of the new covenant". Where did He say that the bread and wine of later memorial remembrances would be His body and blood? He said clearly that "THIS" which He is holding is His body and blood, not "THAT" which you will be eating later as remembrance will be this.

2]Is it a memorial of a past event or a perpetual sacrifice that continues again and again. If it is a memorial, then it indicates that the event is finished and we are remembering the finished event. But the Catholic Catechism that you quoted indicates that it is still going on on Catholic altars daily. Therefore it can't be a memorial but a continuation in church theology that is in opposition to Jesus's own words on the cross: "IT IS FINISHED". Is it finished or isn't it?

3]Is Jesus sitting at the right hand of the Father as scripture says He is or is He physically on Catholic altars throughout the world? According to Scripture He sent us His Holy Spirit to be with us and left us His Word in the Scriptures. He is present with us in the Holy Scriptures and the Holy Spirit as the Scriptures teach. Where does He say that He will be bodily sitting on Catholic altars?

29 posted on 11/23/2006 5:35:43 AM PST by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
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To: Mad Dawg
Anybody want to have a pool on when we start getting arguments about atonement, sacrifices, once and for all, and idolatry?

Not from me. As someone who believes God's Real Presence is with me all the time, on the job, driving in the car, sitting in my living room, I don't see this identically with my Catholic friends. Honest disagreement notwithstanding, the Adoration to me appears a beautiful and sincere form of worship and, well, adoration of our Lord. Blessings to all this Thanksgiving.

30 posted on 11/23/2006 6:04:19 AM PST by Larry Lucido
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To: Uncle Chip
Is it a memorial of a past event or a perpetual sacrifice that continues again and again. If it is a memorial, then it indicates that the event is finished and we are remembering the finished event. But the Catholic Catechism that you quoted indicates that it is still going on on Catholic altars daily. Therefore it can't be a memorial but a continuation in church theology that is in opposition to Jesus's own words on the cross: "IT IS FINISHED". Is it finished or isn't it?

You're thinking linearly/temporally, when the Sacrifice of the Cross is eternal.

31 posted on 11/23/2006 6:27:55 AM PST by Pyro7480 ("Give me an army saying the Rosary and I will conquer the world." - Pope Blessed Pius IX)
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To: Uncle Chip
Is Jesus sitting at the right hand of the Father as scripture says He is or is He physically on Catholic altars throughout the world? According to Scripture He sent us His Holy Spirit to be with us and left us His Word in the Scriptures. He is present with us in the Holy Scriptures and the Holy Spirit as the Scriptures teach. Where does He say that He will be bodily sitting on Catholic altars

Jesus is God, right? Therefore, He is omnipotent.

32 posted on 11/23/2006 6:28:49 AM PST by Pyro7480 ("Give me an army saying the Rosary and I will conquer the world." - Pope Blessed Pius IX)
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To: Larry Lucido
All RIGHT!

That's kind of sort of part of the thought process that played into my conversion to Catholicism and the ease with which I embraced the doctrine of Real Presence.

But it looks like Uncle Chip has offered to represent the opposing POV. I still think some book could have been made on this. ;-)

33 posted on 11/23/2006 6:40:09 AM PST by Mad Dawg (Now we are all Massoud)
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To: Uncle Chip
Did He disappear or did He remain with them?

That's a false opposition. Something can be present while not being apparent.

34 posted on 11/23/2006 6:45:36 AM PST by Mad Dawg (Now we are all Massoud)
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To: Uncle Chip

It's idolatry to worship an image. IF Christ IS indeed "Really" in the Sacrament, then it isn't idolatry to adore The Sacrament, becuase it wouldn't be an image, but Christ Himself.


35 posted on 11/23/2006 6:48:28 AM PST by Mad Dawg (Now we are all Massoud)
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To: Uncle Chip
Here's my effort to articulate too briefly and too incompletely what "we think".

(1) (a) He said, "Do this in [anamnesis- that's a hard word to translate] of me" The antecedant of "this" would naturally be the act. I'm not saying that that's the only possilbe translation but it's the most natural.
(b) I'll just say the word anamnesis bears thinking about, as does the Hebrew "zakar". And in any event, saying "Do this as a, say, 'recollection' of me" isn't the same as saying,"This is ONLY a recollection of me."

(2) This has been addressed by others. It is not many instances of many different sacrifices. Christ is God AND Man and His acts are in some respects temporal and in some respects outside of time -- eternal. With a similarity to the temporalization of the eternal in the Incarnation, the entire "work of Christ" is made present, as if by memory, in the Sacrament. You know, we say colloquially, "Remember, you'll have to pay capital gains on that," so even in English we tell one another to "remember" the future. Memory is a little richer and more complicated than "mere" memorials might at first glance suggest. So yes, it's finished, and that "tetelestai", that also is made present
("being in front of") in the Sacrament.

(3)I don't recall a text in which Jesus says He is present with us in the Scriptures. Can you help me with one or more, please?

In general I would say it seems you have to reach outside of the literal, explicit words of the New Testament to argue He is NOT in the sacrament as much as (if not more than) we have to to argue He IS present. And we have the bread of life and true vine discourses as part of what might be called the "pressure" towards the real presence POV.

Darn! I meant to sit this one out.
36 posted on 11/23/2006 7:04:59 AM PST by Mad Dawg (Now we are all Massoud)
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To: Uncle Chip
Don't Catholics confess at Communion that this wafer is the "body, blood, soul, and divinity" of Christ?

We believe that "In the most blessed sacrament of the Eucharist "the body and blood, together with the soul and divinity, of our Lord Jesus Christ and, therefore, the whole Christ is truly, really, and substantially contained." (Catechism, #1374)

You believe that He is present, not just in spirit, but physically and bodily in the elements.

Yes. But the mode of His presence in the Eucharist is not identical to the mode of His presence in the Second Coming. Now we see Him in the Eucharist, but veiled with the accidents of bread and wine. Then (in the Second Coming), we shall see Him as He is.

-A8

37 posted on 11/23/2006 8:25:53 AM PST by adiaireton8 ("There is no greater evil one can suffer than to hate reasonable discourse." - Plato, Phaedo 89d)
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To: Uncle Chip
So then it is a "memorial", right?

In the sense that it is done in remembrance of Him, yes.

It is done in "remembrance" of Him, right?

Yes.

It is a proclamation in remembrance of His one and only sacrificial death on Calvary, right?. And nothing more, right?

No; the bread and wine truly become Christ.

The bread and wine are just bread and wine taken in remembrance, right?

No.

They are not the actual body and blood from the sacrifice of the Mass, under the appearance of bread and wine, of course, right? or wrong?

They are the actual body and blood of Christ.

-A8

38 posted on 11/23/2006 8:36:32 AM PST by adiaireton8 ("There is no greater evil one can suffer than to hate reasonable discourse." - Plato, Phaedo 89d)
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To: Mad Dawg
I don't recall a text in which Jesus says He is present with us in the Scriptures. Can you help me with one or more, please?

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God . . . and the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us . . . Search the Scriptures, for in them ye think ye have eternal life, and they are they which testify of me. . . . It is the spirit that giveth life; the flesh profiteth nothing. The words that I speak to you, they are spirit, they are life."

There are plenty of other places. Seek and ye will find. Eternal life is in His Word --- not in the bread and wine, not in the sacraments --- but in the Word of God.

39 posted on 11/23/2006 9:36:56 AM PST by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
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To: adiaireton8
We believe that "In the most blessed sacrament of the Eucharist "the body and blood, together with the soul and divinity, of our Lord Jesus Christ and, therefore, the whole Christ is truly, really, and substantially contained." (Catechism, #1374)

But the mode of His presence in the Eucharist is not identical to the mode of His presence in the Second Coming. Now we see Him in the Eucharist, but veiled with the accidents of bread and wine. Then (in the Second Coming), we shall see Him as He is.

So he has come secretly disguised as bread and wine onto Catholic altars. Whether disguised or not, that is still a coming thousands of times a day. Jesus came to Israel and many there did not recognize Him, but it was still a coming to them, recognized or not. According to Catholic teaching Jesus has come not just a second time but millions of times, howbeit disguised as bread and wine.

Perhaps the words of Jesus in Matthew 24:26-27 are instructive here: "Wherefore if they shall say unto you . . . behold he is in the secret chambers, believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east and shineth even unto the west, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."

Catholic churches do keep those consecrated wafers under lock and key in the "tabernacles" on their altars still , don't they? Jesus said that if they say He is in those wafers under lock and key, DON'T BELIEVE THEM.

40 posted on 11/23/2006 9:57:38 AM PST by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
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