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To: jo kus
Which sacramental tradition makes the Word of God no effect?

Infant baptism is a later tradition that violates not only the Scriptural injunction to "believe first then be baptized", but it also violates the earlier tradition of the apostles in the book of Acts in which no one was baptized unless he or she believed the Gospel first.

At what point is the Gospel believed in your sacraments? If it is after baptism then your church has it backwards and makes the Gospel ineffective. It is both scripturally and traditionally incorrect.

Wasn't it Tertullian who taught that the believer should wait for a significant period of time before being baptized and not be too hasty with it.

When do you fulfill the tradition of the apostles who were all baptized after they believed in Jesus.? When was the last time a Catholic fulfilled that apostolic tradition? of actually choosing as an adult to be baptized after believing the Gospel?

Thus, either YOU interpret the Word of God to the exclusion of anyone else and FOR yourself, OR the Church interprets the Word of God FOR the People of God. Scripture doesn't support the first method, but rather, the second.

Ah there's the rub and the difference between us. The Holy Spirit inhabits individuals not corporate entities like the Roman Church, or Greek Church, or any other Church. He gives those in whom He dwells the power to understand the meaning of the writings that He authored. That is both tradition and Scripture --- two witnesses are better than one.

209 posted on 12/06/2006 10:59:17 AM PST by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
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To: Uncle Chip
Infant baptism is a later tradition that violates not only the Scriptural injunction to "believe first then be baptized", but it also violates the earlier tradition of the apostles in the book of Acts in which no one was baptized unless he or she believed the Gospel first.

That remains your unproven opinion. You have absolutely no evidence that infant baptism was a "later tradition". We have written evidence that it was the teachings of the Apostles from Ireneaus and Origen. Also, you have yet to show me anywhere from Scriptures that one MUST first believe before being baptized. Some Christians received the Spirit BEFORE being baptized, for example.

Wasn't it Tertullian who taught that the believer should wait for a significant period of time before being baptized and not be too hasty with it.

Obviously speaking to catechumens. This doesn't rule out infant baptism.

When do you fulfill the tradition of the apostles who were all baptized after they believed in Jesus.? When was the last time a Catholic fulfilled that apostolic tradition? of actually choosing as an adult to be baptized after believing the Gospel?

Oh boy. When? The Scriptures note Catholics being baptized quite often. Historical writings reveal this tradition continued up to this day. I currently am teaching a class of 17 adults who will become baptized or complete the sacraments of initiation during Easter Vigil. The Rites of Christian Initiation of Adults (RCIA) goes back as far as one cares to go in Christian history. You are always welcome to choose to become baptized after you have faith in the Gospel, if your parents didn't plead your case to God when you were an infant.

The Holy Spirit inhabits individuals not corporate entities like the Roman Church, or Greek Church, or any other Church. He gives those in whom He dwells the power to understand the meaning of the writings that He authored. That is both tradition and Scripture --- two witnesses are better than one.

Wrong. It actually is more proper to say that the Spirit inhabits the entire Church as one man. Thus, we are united in Christ, since the Church is the Body of Christ. Sure, the Spirit comes to us individually, but more often than not, Paul refers to the entire community as if it is one body inhabited by the Spirit, such as when he says WE are the Temple of the Holy Spirit (not individually, but as a corporate organization that is visible).

Yes, two witnesses are better than one. Thus, Apostolic Tradition gives us proper understanding of Scriptures. This takes us back to my very first response to you - one that you continue to ignore the implications of. Without a living authority, anyone can bring their own theological constructs to the table and claim that the Scriptures back them up. Thus, 30,000 Protestant denominations all claim to be correct...

Either there are 30,000 Holy Spirits, or there are a lot of people who think they are being guided by the Spirit but are not. The problem is that you can't tell which one is correct, if any! God didn't leave us in such confusion. He left a visible Church that vouched for His Word. You are free to enter into it more fully - or you can continue to reject those whom He sent.

Regards

212 posted on 12/06/2006 3:30:36 PM PST by jo kus (Humility is present when one debases oneself without being obliged to do so- St.Chrysostom; Phil 2:8)
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