Posted on 12/01/2006 12:53:15 PM PST by Alex Murphy
"Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name's sake. And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray.
And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let the one who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house, and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak. And alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days!
Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath. For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.
Then if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or 'There he is!' do not believe it. For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. See, I have told you beforehand. So, if they say to you, 'Look, he is in the wilderness,' do not go out. If they say, 'Look, he is in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.
Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
- Matthew, Ch. 24
(just a little reference material...)
I'm not a Dispensationalist but...
It takes a truly paranoid worldview and a lightning speed to take offense to perceive as "anti-Jewish" the belief that the Jewish Messiah will one day come at a time of great peril to rescue Jerusalem and its inhabitants.
"The Writings" (the books Isaiah through Malakai in the Christian "Old Testament") are filled with promises of horrible things happening to the citizens of the nations of Judah and Israel. Are they also anti-Jewish?
Are Falwell and Lahay "anti-Jewish" because they believe that Jews will one day recognize Jesus as their "Lord"? Let me ask this: If the Jewish Messiah comes tomorrow, is recognizing him as Lord and as whomever he says he is (even G_d himself) a Jewish thing or a Christian thing? Say a man has a Jewish mother, is circumcized, and follows all 270-odd rules of Moses's Law?. If he rejects the authority of the Messiah when he comes, is he a true Jew?
Perhaps an Orthodox Rabbi and Falwell will never agree about what will ultimately occur when the Messiah comes. Does that make Falwell "anti-Jewish"? Orthodox Jews and Reformed Jews don't agree on almost anything except that Jesus isn't a Jewish thing. But Falwell is some kind of special danger to Jews?
THE BIBLE...
Paul the Apostle talked of Dispensationialism...
Regardless of what your school, church or pastor tells you, the coming Tribulation is real...You don't want to be there...You don't want your family to be there...
If you can't find the Rapture and the Tribulation in the Bible, pick it up again...Just you, the bible and the Lord...Ask God to show you...And prepare you...
Should we just "off" ourselves now, then?
I can find the Tribulation in the Bible, but I can't seem to locate the "rapture".
I surely can find the Second Coming, but I can't find the "rapture".
As to "classic dispensationalism", what is really classical about the bad dream of a little Brethren girl less than 200 years ago?
LaHaye and Jenkins simply reformulated Hal Lindsay who reformulated M.R. DeHaan who reformulated H.A. Ironside who probably reformulated C.I. Scofield who, along with a few others, over the years, divided, and then dominated, the conferences started in 1878 at Niagra which spawned the Fundamentalist sect.
And the Niagra Conferences came from J.N.Darby, who reformulated the dream of that little Brethren girl. And from that dream came a whole host of dispensational, apocalyptic sects, of which Fundamentalism is merely one.
That's the nutshell version.
If Paul the Apostle talked of Dispensationalism, surely J. Vernon McGee perfected it.
No, I don't want to be there during the Tribulation. I would like to die peacefully in my bed. But, tell me, how could it be any worse in those days for any individual Christian than it was in the days of Christians under Nero, or in the days of Savonarola or in the case of Christians today in China or any other Christ hating society? Did Bonhoffer have it better under Hitler?
Christians have been burned alive, buried alive, eaten by lions, stoned to death, gutted, de-tongued, de-fingered, decapitated, tortured beyond belief, crucified upside down, and left to die agonizing deaths. The Tribulation has been with us since Christ rose to be with His Father.
Nope...Just be sure of your salvation, and avoid the Tribulation...
I can't imagine either scenario...I suspect the worst is being forced to watch your loved ones being ripped to shreds...
As to "classic dispensationalism", what is really classical about the bad dream of a little Brethren girl less than 200 years ago?
I don't know anything about that but if you are suggesting that some little girl invented dispensationalism, I don't buy it...I see it all over the bible...
I can find the Tribulation in the Bible, but I can't seem to locate the "rapture".
Not necessarily you, but a lot of folks don't believe what they read in the bible...How about the Bride of Christ and the marriage supper of the Lamb??? You believe in that???
How about the Bride of Christ and the marriage supper of the Lamb??? You believe in that???
Of course, I do.
As to Dispensationalism, I won't belabor the point, but I would suggest, if you are interested, that you study how it came to be prevalent in the Evangelical community.
First, start with Darby and work back. Then take a look at the Niagara conferences which spawned the primary expositor of Dispensationalism, Scofield.
I will be the first to admit that the Rapture and Dispensationalism are so ingrained in Evangelicals it almost appears to be "Biblical".
My position regarding the Rapture is agnostic, not, however re the Second Coming.
Just out of curiosity, I may do that...I've read references to Scofield but haven't delved into his history...I can't say whether his ideas have indirectly influenced my view of the scripture...
I've heard it said that Scofield 'invented' the rapture since it was unknown up until his time...I take the view that God will reveal certain 'biblical' things to people as the time approaches for them to be fulfilled...
I know there's a great deal of stuff in Ezekiel, Zachariah and other places that I'll never get...I'm guessing those things will be revealed to the right people at the right time...
And then there's the disbelief factor...How many people will get into a discussion about that gigantic body of water above the stars??? The one that NASA hasn't found yet...I believe that God opening the Red Sea is a 'type' of the Rapture showing us that He will open that great body of water during the Rapture...
I realize a person has to reach to get that, but it's in THAT book...There is SO much stuff in THAT book...
I am not trying to be dogmatic, because, as you point out there is a lot in that Book.
The point is, Pre-Trib, Post-Trib, Dispensationalism or not, they are all minor side issues that are, at best, interesting. The important thing is a person's relationship to Christ.
On that, I am sure we agree.
As to whether Scofield has influenced your view of Scripture, let me assure you, he has, even though you may not know it. There was a time in this country (30's, 40's, 50's, 60's) when the only Bible one would carry in order to show he was a "real Christian" was the 1909 edition of the Scofield KJV, leather-bound, gold-edged, with onion-skin pages. The preferred edition was 7 by 4 and a half. To really show how deep you were, the pages would be marked, and highlighted, with hand-written comments from some wonderful sermon one had just heard. If you were particularly deep, passages would be marked not just in red, but in blue. They even had special pencils that were red on one end and blue on the other.
It wasn't just the KJV that was God-inspired, it was the Scofield KJV that was God-inspired. Preachers would simply refer to "page so and so in your Scofield Bible". Most of us have moved beyond that today...with a few exceptions.
If you want to see how much influence Scofield has had on you, go to your nearest Bible Book Store and pick up a copy of the original 1909 Scofield with all the notes (they still sell them). You'll literally see the blueprint of modern day Dispensational Fundamentalism.
If you approach prophecy by prejudging God and the motives of all those who believe then you are just going to end up with a self-willed interpretation.
For the non-believers, take comfort. We are not commanded to make it happen. We are told to watch for the signs. So if they are right and we are wrong then there is nothing for them to worry about. The signs will never appear. However....if we are right and they are wrong, they need to stop falsely accusing people of evil motives and plots.
The problem with the Rapture is that Revelation is quite explicit regarding the Resurrections. John even numbers them: First Resurrection. Second Resurrection. The first occurs at the Second Coming. The second occurs after the Millennium.
There is no mention of a "pre-resurrection" occurring at the Rapture and it is difficult to wedge one in.
I understand the problem however. Jesus said no man knows the time He would establish his kingdom. If one believes that a seven year Tribulation starts with the appearance of the Anti-Christ, then it *would* be possible to identify His coming. The Rapture helps resolve that problem, but as I said it has problems of its own.
I agree...However, as I see it, the 1st Resurrection has 3 parts to it...It's called the harvest and it consists of the firstfruits, the main harvest and then the gleanings...
During the Rapture, only the Christians/Saints see Jesus and they meet Him in the air...At the 2nd coming, ALL eyes are on Jesus as he lands on earth...
As far as Revelation is concerned, the wedding takes place in heaven with the bride of Christ, the church, and then Jesus comes back for the 2nd coming...The church is getting hitched in heaven during the Tribulation on earth...
I've yet so see anything that makes me believe we are meant to *avoid* hardship & avoidance is written all over the Rapture. Faith & knowledge brought by our faith gives us strength to withstand anything, including the Tribulation.
Ezekiel - Chapter 13
http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Eze/Eze013.html#20
Pay attention to 13:20
Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I [am] against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make [them] fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, [even] the souls that ye hunt to make [them] fly.
"Pillows" are protective charms. Watch for those offering charms to show the reaper those who are looking to fly away in the Rapture, so you'll know whether or not there is truth in what you're being told about the Rapture here. IOW, don't take my word for it, but please have your eyes opened & remember.
KJV English Concordance for "pillows"
http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin.blb/words.pl?hr=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eliyah.com%2Flexicon.html&icon=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eliyah.com%2Fbackto.gif&textcolor=000000&linkcolor=0000FF&vlinkcolor=A000FF&show_strongs=yes&word=pillows
Good post!
Is "offing" yourself the way you have been taught to meet or greet the Messiah? Were you taught that the Messiah will come during good times or He come when things are most difficult?
This explanation is far too complex for an event that remarkably simply related in Revelation. One should note that Revelation is not written chronologically throughout, and there is reason to suppose that the Marriage Feast of the Lamb is a one time event rather than a continuous event. After all, if you are right, then who are the 12,000 evangelizing during the Tribuation? I don't have all the answers regarding Bible prophecy, but I'm pretty well satisfied that the Rapture has problems that cannot be overcome without some new inspired revelation.
Correct...I agree...
but I'm pretty well satisfied that the Rapture has problems that cannot be overcome without some new inspired revelation.
I haven't encountered those problems...
Ah! Well, if you're just going to get snarky...
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