Posted on 12/01/2006 7:48:24 PM PST by Pyro7480
Most are a result of 1917...
SCOBA isn't a jurisdiction its a group of Bishops (Not unlike the Catholic council of Bishops). Also there is no Patriarch of America (despite OCA chest pounding).
The major reason for the multiple jurisdictions is the soviet attack on the church. The EP isn't helping this by granting anyone who asks autocephally under the EP.
"The major reason for the multiple jurisdictions is the soviet attack on the church."
That's almost right. The reason we have multiple jurisdictions was the Russian Revolution. Before that, for all practical purposes, Orthodoxy in America was under the Russian Church, no matter what one's ethnicity was.
"The EP isn't helping this by granting anyone who asks autocephally under the EP."
But exactly the opposite has happened here in the States. When SCOBA under Iakovos moved in the direction of an American Church and autocephally, he was "retired" by the EP and that was the end of that. The nearest we have come since is with the GOA at the very end of the Spyridon years In all honesty, though, the American Church is not nearly mature enough in its Orthodoxy to be autocephallous. I do think we should be united in one church, but not autocephallous, maybe not even autonomous.
So, are you saying that He isn't worthy of respect until His second coming?
We could say that Melkite and Maronite Churches are in "violation" of the Vatican jurisdiction which is not the case. They are sui juris Churches within the Roman Catholic fold.
Yes, it says that every knee shall bend at His second coming. But, it doesn't say that every knee won't bend before His second coming. Other than saying that every knee shall bend at the name of Jesus (His name occurs in the Catholic Mass several times), the NT doesn't say that one shouldn't kneel or genuflect in His presence.
When the Blessed Sacrament is exposed in a monstrance, the traditional rubric is to kneel in the aisle before entering the pew. When the Blessed Sacrament is reserved in the tabernacle, the custom is to genuflect before entering the aisle.
As I mentioned before, kneeling and genuflection are signs of respect as well as acts of humility (for example, one's defenses are down when one is kneeling).
Oops, "before entering the aisle" should read "before entering the pew"
Lyons II was not a true ecumenical council. What the Greek party did there (the Greek heirarchs have tried and succeceeded at all sorts of stupid things in Orthodox history, such as monthelism, iconcolastic heresy, caving in at Lyons II and at Florence, embracing Calvin, "New Calendar" and proclaiming re-union with the Anglicans; thank God the Greek yayiyas and lower clergy never lost their Orthodox heart and saved the Faith from insane EPs).
We Orthodox recognzie the first seven Ecumenical Councils. Thise after the official split of the Church can not possibly be ecumenical. Read the 6th and 7th Council proceedings and read the Latin statement of their faith
We believe in God the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible; and in his only-begotten Son, who was begotten of him before all worlds; very God of Very God, Light of Light, begotten not made, being of one substance with the Father, that is of the same substance as the Father; by him were all things made which are in heaven and which are in earth; and in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and giver of life, who proceedeth from the Father, and with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; the Trinity in unity and Unity in trinity; a unity so far as essence is concerned, but a trinity of persons or subsistences; and so we confess God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost; not three gods, but one God, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost: not a subsistency of three names, but one substance of three subsistences; and of these persons one is the essence, or substance or nature, that is to say one is the godhead, one the eternity, one the power, one the kingdom, one the glory, one the adoration, one the essential will and operation of the same Holy and inseparable Trinity, which hath created all things, hath made disposition of them, and still contains them.
At no time did the Latin Church use filioque at any of the Ecumenical Councils of the first millennium. Pope Leo III resisted Frankish demands that he add filioque into the Creed, even though he personally did not find filioque theolgoically objectionable.
No, but the Church did at the First Ecumenical Council, and only on Sundays, precisely because everyone was making up their own rules.
Some habits die hard I see. Certainly there was no mention of sitting in the Church either.
Making up rules as one goes along and ignoring Ecmenical Councils is what caused the corruption and split. The same thing happened in the 16th century when Christianity splintered one more time over what appearted to have been man-made rules.
Good Lord! Where are you guys pulling this from? The CHURCH prescribed in 321 AD that we will stand when we pray on Sundays. Period.
As far as I know the Catholic Church recognizes the First Ecumenical Council as binding, en toto not only part of it. As far as I know the "no kneeling" on Sundays was never challenged as long the Church was united.
Believe it or not, standing is also a sign of respect. People stand up when the President walks in. We stand up to commanding officers when in the military. When the Pope stands, everyone stands.
It just seems that somehow standing isn't "dignified" enough. Please, this is what the Church ruled, the Emperor signed and the Pope approved. Somehow, all this was changed and re-defined, but not in an ecumenical council for sure. Something is not right here.
We Orthodox follow what the Church says. When in doubt, the Church goes back to the Patristcs and the Scripture to find the answers. We don't make up out own rules. We follow the Scripture, the Apostles and the Councils, as much as we can.
And you guys think we are juridical?! Don't you have pious customs that developed over time from inspiration that aren't precisely spelled out in council documents or episcopal declarations/pronouncements? As Benedict XVI said in one of his interviews, the Church does not proclaim a bunch of "No"'s, but rather encourages one to say "Yes" to God and experience the freedom that accompanies submitting to God's will (of course, BXVI said it much more eloquently).
The Pharisees followed all the rules (the letter of the law) and Jesus called them whited sepulchers...
Lots, but we do them standing. :)
Bowing and crossing (constantly) are such customs. On the Pentecost we do kneel and during the Great (Holy) Week we prostrate (but not on Sundays).
We have always found a way to accomplish that which was given to us and add our own customs without violating the Tradition.
One such example is the innovation (I believe 5th century) of placing the Body of Christ into the Holy Chalice containing the Precious Blood and for the communicants to receive the Body and the Blood, just as the clergy do.
Not quite.
North American jurisdictional unity was not broken by the Bolshevik Revolution. The Church here remained united under Russian hierarchs under the terms of St. Tikhon's ukase of 1920 until 1922 when the Ecumenical Patriarch Meletius (of sorrowful memory) claimed jurisdiction over the 'Greek diaspora' in the wake of the Second Greco-Turkish War, and established the Greek Archdiocese.
It is unclear how the Synod/Metropolia split would have played out, or even if it would have happened, had the entire Orthodox world continued to recognize North America as united the Russian hierarchy which had evangelized the continent.
"(the Greek heirarchs have tried and succeceeded at all sorts of stupid things in Orthodox history, such as monthelism, iconcolastic heresy, caving in at Lyons II and at Florence, embracing Calvin, "New Calendar" and proclaiming re-union with the Anglicans; thank God the Greek yayiyas and lower clergy never lost their Orthodox heart and saved the Faith from insane EPs)."
Big SMILE!!!!!!!!!! ('course, my yiayia always maintained that Christ was a Greek boy and no Jew at all; you could tell by his name "Christos" so sometimes we have to be careful of yiayias, especially if they have wooden spoons in their hands!)
I say to-may-to and you say to-mah-to ... ;-)
"North American jurisdictional unity was not broken by the Bolshevik Revolution. The Church here remained united under Russian hierarchs under the terms of St. Tikhon's ukase of 1920 until 1922 when the Ecumenical Patriarch Meletius (of sorrowful memory) claimed jurisdiction over the 'Greek diaspora' in the wake of the Second Greco-Turkish War, and established the Greek Archdiocese."
Not quite once again. Greek Orthodoxy in this country from 1908 to 1922 was under the Archbishop of Athens. When +Meletios was elected EP, he created the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese here as a Eparchy of Constantinople. Prior to 1908 I think its fair to say that the Greeks were under the Russian Bishops, though Constantinople says otherwise. The Arabs were a sort of separate entity as a mission of the Russian Church until the 1970s, though the period from 1918 to then was a confused on to say the least.
But the reason this could happen was the Russian Revolution and its devatation of the Russian Church.
Can you document this? I've always understood that all Orthodox in North America were under Russian jurisdiction when St. Tikhon was Archbishop of Alaska and All-North America.
Aside from the records of my parish, which aren't online, try this link:
http://www.goarch.org/en/archdiocese/
Scroll down about halfway.
An even better bet is this:
http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article7125.asp
Okay. :)
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