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To: Kolokotronis; kosta50; Agrarian

I think y'all appreciate reading this. I sure did


10 posted on 12/02/2006 4:00:28 AM PST by bornacatholic
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To: bornacatholic; Pyro7480; kosta50; Agrarian
"I think y'all appreciate reading this. I sure did"

The homily or the comments? We posted the homily here on FR a few days back. The comments certainly are directed at you Latin guys. Some are obvious, some seem to be an example of the hearer hearing what he wants to hear. For example:

"They look at the stupid things the Latins have done and are doing to the sacred liturgy, about how those desiring traditional liturgy from lay people to priests, are marginalized and berated. They see the leaders of a group of "traditionalists" are ecommunicated. And they are going to get closer to Rome? Would they hope that their traditions would be respected were they to give greater submission to the authority of Peter which the Pope of Rome exercises?"

I sincerely doubt that the Patriarch was intimating any such thing at all. This simply would never happen with us. We wouldn't allow it, period, end of discussion.

And this:

"[This is amazingly ironic. The Orthodox don’t kneel as much as Latins do, in one sense, as when we enter our churches. No… wait… in a lot of places you never see Latins kneel at all anymore, do you? Especially during Mass?]"

This is because kneeling on Sundays was proscribed by a disciplinary canon of the 1st Ecumenical Council (Canon 20)"On the first day of the week we stand when we pray. The reason is that on the day of Resurrection, by standing at prayer, we remind ourselves of the grace we have received." (St. Basil the Great). Of course we make up for that with full body prostrations during certain prayers in Great Lent.:)

"This kind of Liturgy can never grow old or outdated. [Again, I ask, what must they think about what we are doing in our churches? what we are doing to those who want the traditional forms?]"

The first sentence of the comment is a fair one. I think the Patriarch is reminding the Latin listeners (not the Pope, who knows exactly what the Patriarch is saying)of the Truth of what is going on in the Liturgy as expressed in the sentences immediately preceding this comment. The second sentence is, in my opinion, special pleading. At any rate, this particular line from the EP's homily has to be read in the context of this:

"At the same time, we recognize that the rule of prayer is the rule of faith (lex orandi lex credendi)"

This maxim is fundamental to an understanding of the Orthodox view of Liturgy. Many of you Latins here on FR have seen us Orthodox repeating this time and again. If you want to understand Orthodox theology, look to the way we pray publicly in all our liturgies and devotions. Fr. Z's commentary is absolutely directed to Latins and in a way the EP's isn't. The EP is simply stating a fact about Orthodoxy. It is true that from the pov of an Orthodox observer, the application of the maxim to a Latin Rite Mass does indeed cause confusion. We recognize a closeness of belief and theology through your NO Mass, but not the fullness of The Faith nor the sort of common identity which unity would imply. This isn't to say that that near fullness and identity aren't there. Those of us familiar with the theology behind Latin liturgics know that, but do Latin Catholics in the pews know that? It seems to me that your NO Mass requires extensive theological knowledge to be fully understood. Ours tends to spoon feed us. Now that may be because we are a simple people needing all the help we can get to understand these matters! :) In any event, Fr. Z's comments to Latin Christians likely are fair and important, but I don't think the EP is issuing any concern to the Pope or the Latin world over what you are doing. That simply has to be your business. Its better if we just show what we do and leave it at that.

"Truly, particular and wholehearted gratitude fills our hearts toward the loving God, for today, on the festive commemoration of the Apostle founder and protector of this Church, the Divine Liturgy is attended by His Holiness our brother and bishop of the elder Rome, Pope Benedict XVI, together with his honorable entourage."

Notice what the Patriarch calls the Pope. This comment, and the positioning of the the Patriarch and the Pope to each other, as Kosta pointed out elsewhere, (generally the Pope just ahead of and to the left of the Patriarch) demonstrates the relative positions of the two in The Church as the hierarchs of the 1st and 2nd Sees of Christendom.

While the entire homily is pure Orthodox theology, indeed it is the pure theology of the One, Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. The commentary is a bit on the "rough side", but its clear that Fr. Z gets it in spades. On another thread, apropos of this Divine Liturgy, I wrote this:

"I am so very happy that everyone had an opportunity to see the Divine Liturgy on EWTN or the web! Here is something to understand about most of us Orthodox. Century upon century our people lived under various tyrannies; many still do. Things were so bad in the old countries that for those of us in West and Australia, our old people had to leave. But through those centuries of oppression and cruelty, every Sunday our people could go to heaven for a few hours. Those of us in the West are so blessed that our old people brought the Divine Liturgy with them when they came here. They knew they had a great treasure which had allowed them to live fully under conditions which made up the nightmares of my childhood. And they preserved it so their children and grandchildren and great grandchildren could have it...every Sunday just like they did. Our Divine Liturgy doesn't simply define a part of our lives, it is our Life!"

In a sense, I think that's what Fr. Z is asking Latins to embrace, that the Liturgy is our Life.
13 posted on 12/02/2006 5:03:59 AM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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