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To: Forest Keeper; Ping-Pong; .30Carbine
The OT righteous WERE true believers and looked forward to the coming of Jesus. They were part of God's invisible Church, which has always been the community of all believers, living, dead, or not yet born

I have two problems with this: (a) their revelation was not full and (b)  you told me that God doesn't have a special place for Ghandi because he was not a Christian (and a lawyer at that!).

We could just as easily argue then that present-day pious Jews are part of the "invisible" Church. Christ makes it very plain that he is establishing His Church, and there is no doubt that this church did not exist in the "invisible" form.

Christ was building upon God's already existing Church

That's not what He says in the scriptures.

All sin is sin in terms of that it equals death (Rom. 6:23). However, we are also told implicitly that some sins are worse than others, further implying different "levels of hell"

We will all be judged according to our deeds, and the level of discomfort or bliss may be reflected how distant or close we are from God, but James seems to suggest no such thing. He is stating very clearly that one transgression makes you guilty, an either-or condition.

The OT is full of penalties for sin that vary all over the place

The NT says you break one and you have broken all. I am a Christian and I go with the NT.

Taking drugs oneself is a certain kind of sin, but pushing them on children I think is much worse

In human justice, absolutely.  Ours is not to judge but to be judged.

Just as extra awards are given to us in Heaven for our actions, so also are extra curses given to those going to hell for their actions

Where does it say that? First of all, the OT  has no such concept. Second, it appears only three times in the NT. And, third, you can lose your rewards for something as little as vanity!

"Beware of practicing your righteousness before men to be noticed by them; otherwise you have no reward with your Father who is in heaven" -- Mat 6:1

or being rich (cf Luke 6:22-24). I wouldn't pretend to know how God thinks and suggest to know His ways.

It is my side that says we are not worthy based on our deeds. Yours is the one that says it is a component

I think your memory is failing, FK. In the past this was clearly explained to you and your statement is clearly wrong (again). We do not believe we "merit" salvation. We do believe we will be judged based on our deeds (not rewarded, judged, pardoned or convicted and sentenced).

16,183 posted on 07/18/2007 8:41:59 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50; Ping-Pong; .30Carbine
FK: "The OT righteous WERE true believers and looked forward to the coming of Jesus. They were part of God's invisible Church, which has always been the community of all believers, living, dead, or not yet born."

I have two problems with this: (a) their revelation was not full and (b) you told me that God doesn't have a special place for Ghandi because he was not a Christian (and a lawyer at that!).

Their revelation was not as full as ours is, but it was "enough" to correctly believe in the one true God. If it was not, then no one from the OT is in Heaven. They didn't get a free pass. The way to Heaven for them was the same as it is for us, grace through faith. ...... Ghandi did not have faith like the OT righteous did, and did not believe in the one true God.

We could just as easily argue then that present-day pious Jews are part of the "invisible" Church.

They deny Christ just like Ghandi did. Therefore, they're out.

[James] is stating very clearly that one transgression makes you guilty, an either-or condition.

James is correct. He simply makes no comment one way of the other about what I am saying. IOW, one sin shuts us out of Heaven. After that, among all the disqualifying sins, some are worse than others. Think of it as the counterpart to the comparative hierarchy of righteousness we are told about. We know that the righteous acts of martyrs are "higher", we have the two greatest Commandments, we are told that in certain circumstances treating an enemy with kindness is harder, and presumably "more" righteous, than treating a friend the same, etc.

FK: "Just as extra awards are given to us in Heaven for our actions, so also are extra curses given to those going to hell for their actions."

Where does it say that?

I don't know if it is a slam dunk, but there is this:

Rev 20:12-13 : 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done.

Maybe Ping can help me with this, but it seems to me that everyone going into this judgment was already doomed. Therefore, we can reasonably ask what the purpose was for the judgment. One answer would be to discern different punishments in hell, over and above just being there. If both are in hell, it would seem very odd to me if Ghandi and Hitler are going through the same experience. :)

And, third, you can lose your rewards for something as little as vanity!

Your references, (Mat 6:1, Luke 6:22-24, and I'm sure there are others of the same kind), apply to the extra rewards we receive, at a separate judgment, not to salvation itself.

We do not believe we "merit" salvation. We do believe we will be judged based on our deeds (not rewarded, judged, pardoned or convicted and sentenced).

I don't understand your distinction. If you believe that you will go to Heaven or hell based partly on your deeds, then what I said is correct. "Worthy", in this case, means worthy of Heaven.

16,191 posted on 07/19/2007 11:01:12 AM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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