That's my point: lay back and enjoy the ride. Easy. Comfy. Let God do all the work...we can play and do whatever, sin all you want, all our sins are already forgiven...like a bunch of spoiled brats.
If it worked like that, then it wouldn't be perseverance, would it. Jesus says that His burden is light, so that means that perseverance DOES take "perceived" effort on our part. All I'm saying is that when I do a good thing, when I really don't feel like doing it, it "feels" like work to me, but it is really God working through me.
Why does God need to do "maintenance" on His elect, FK? Did He not predestine everything, or does He have to micromanage too, so the "poor" babies can persevere (even though the little premadonnas will persevere regardless because they have already been "saved")?
We need maintenance because the system God set up has us ever growing closer to Him. If it all happened in a minute then our existence would be very different on earth. Only God knows why He chose as He did. He wanted us to live in confidence of our salvation, and realize that we still have much to learn. Only God who began a good work in us can complete it until the day of Christ Jesus.
FK: "Since God is no respecter of men (or angels) then it must have been part of His plan."
Where does it say "of angles?" Angels are obligatory God's servants; they are not free.
Yes, that is what I was attempting to say. Just as man is not free to thwart God's plan, neither are angels. So, when satan fell, God did not say "Oh NO, that ruins everything!"
Why did Adam and Eve have to "learn" their lesson? Why not just makes them "smart" enough? Is this why mankind has to endure evil of its own making?
I don't know! :) All I can do is observe that this is the way God wanted it, and it is therefore good. Somehow, it is good that man suffer from his sins. One possibility is that we learn from that suffering.
FK: "Now, did he do the thing independently, or do you pin responsibility on me just because I could have stopped it?"
On you, because not only could you have stopped it, but you also foreknew what would happen, and you created conditions that made it inevitable for him to fail -- and die. If God does everything, as you mention above, all "credit" goes to God!
How did I create the conditions? I didn't suggest it, in fact I argued against it. They only thing of relevance is that I did not put my foot down and stop it. That is not the same as creating the conditions. I did it in order to prevent him from making the same mistake later, in which case he WOULD die. So, the idea is that by allowing it now, it saves his life. I think it is possible that this happens with God.
FK: ... "lead us not into temptation" - does any believer think He WILL lead us into temptation?
Why mention it then?
As a reminder, the same as with the other examples I gave from the Lord's Prayer. The Bible does a lot of reminding. We need it. :)
So, if [satan] is a "bug" why is there so much evil in the world? Seems like this may be a lot bigger bug then you think.
Oh, I agree that we should never underestimate him. Next to us he is very powerful. I just want to be on the record as NOT thinking that satan is some sort of "counter-God". satan has no ability to triumph over the one and only true God.
How can a "bug" be involved in a battle with God. It's like a queen ant blocking your way during a stroll!
To God it might be just like that. :) But, for however many people get to see it, I would imagine it will be quite a large spectacle. :)
Perseverance doesn't necessarily mean struggle. Just "holding out." You could be bored on a 7-day cruise and have to "persevere" in boredom but lacking nothing.
The perseverance relates to keeping the faith. We are constantly bombarded with temptations and lust for things and people, and are constantly challenged by other groups and religions or systems that may seem "greener."
Thus, even if we are not being thrown tot he lions, we are challenged to keep our values, dignity and remain moral beings. the easiest thing to do would be to just say "I give up" and go for the forbidden fruits.
All I'm saying is that when I do a good thing, when I really don't feel like doing it, it "feels" like work to me, but it is really God working through me...Jesus ssays that His burden is light, so that means that perseverance DOES take "perceived" effort on our part.
It's not easy being a Christian if you really want to be a Christian. So, yes, it is an effort. We are reminded of this with every fasting period. Lets we take our faith for granted and drift away. It reminds us that cross comes before the crown.
We need maintenance because the system God set up has us ever growing closer to Him
The Bible says you must believe (and baptized). Protestants tell me after that they are saved. God converted their hearts, God gave them faith. God did everything. They are saved, for good. What else is there to do? If God wants you nearer, the Protestants will tell me God will do that too. You can't have God doing everything and all and that saying we have to grow closer. If that's how God set it up, than it's not our effort but our destiny and will happen whether we want it or not. It's not our "perseverance."
Kosta: Where does it say "of angles?" Angels are obligatory God's servants; they are not free.
FK: Yes, that is what I was attempting to say. Just as man is not free to thwart God's plan, neither are angels. So, when satan fell, God did not say "Oh NO, that ruins everything!"
Ggod is no respecter of angels? God is no respecter of men, because he gives to the righteous and the unrighteous. As far as I know, God doe snot give to fallen angels, but he does give to fallen men (because there is always hope for the fallen men to be saved, but none for the fallen angels).
Angelic rebellion is unforgivable because God created Angels as obligate servants and their rebellion is a complete reversal of their nature. Men was created in God's image and likeness, with limited dominion and capacity to forgive which the angles do not have. Man was not created as God's servant, but as God by grace. Man's rebellion is a corruption, not complete reversal of his nature. The rebellious angels are dead. We are sick. Big difference.
One possibility is that we learn from that suffering
God did not create suffering. Therefore suffering cannot be good. Suffering is the outcome of the fall world and is therefore an manifestation of evil, not learning. Given that we have been unable to stop suffering in our short history, suffering does not seem to have and lasting education effects.
How did I create the conditions?
I put you in the position of God. That's how. When you make a decision as a father, you don't have the foreknowledge and resources available to God, so your comparison is invalid.
Oh, I agree that we should never underestimate [satan]. Next to us he is very powerful. I just want to be on the record as NOT thinking that satan is some sort of "counter-God". satan has no ability to triumph over the one and only true God.
FK, the temptation is in our nature. It's part of our freedom. We need to stop blaming our weakness on the devil and live up to our own evil and reject it. Passing the buck never solved anything.
I would not worry about you giving satan more than he's due, never mind making him "counter-God." He gets all his "life" from us.
But, for however many people get to see [Armageddon], I would imagine it will be quite a large spectacle.
There will not be an Armageddon, FK. The devil is not "counter-God." At no point is the outcome in question. God doesn't need the final battle -- His is the Final Judgment!