Kosta. You made a statement. You said what I believed wasn't Calvinism. I quoted Calvin and some Calvinists to prove to you that it was Calvinism. They you complained that I quoted Calvin since I do not follow a man. I will not chase my tail for you. You either want to talk or you don't.
You have articulated a couple of times that what I write is not Calvinism. I have shown you differently. Free will is denied in post-fall man. Not in pre-fall man. If some are saying that nobody was ever free, then they are not following the Scriptural doctrines that were articulated by John Calvin and others Reformers. But you know what, that's okay as long as it is based on Scripture. I believe and John Calvin believed that Adam and Eve had free will to choose to do good. We also believed that when they sinned they destroyed that freedom so that their progeny would always be inclined towards evil. I really don't think my Calvinists brothers and sisters feel differently about that. Saying that God ordained the fall does not deny the free will of the first man. But today, man does not have freedom of will for he has willfully bound himself in chains of sin to where he is not free. He is desirous of anything but God. And truly, Kosta, only in Christ do we have true freedom. Whom the Son sets free is free indeed.
Amen.
"For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ." -- Romans 5:17
We must now enter on that question by which vain and inconstant minds are greatly agitated; namely, Why God permitted Adam to be tempted, seeing that the sad result was by no means hidden from him? That He now relaxes Satan’s reins, to allow him to tempt us to sin, we ascribe to judgment and to vengeance, in consequence of man’s alienation from himself; but there was not the same reason for doing so when human nature was yet pure and upright. God, therefore, permitted Satan to tempt man, who was conformed to His own image, and not yet implicated in any crime, having, moreover, on this occasion, allowed Satan the use of an animal which otherwise would never have obeyed him; and what else was this, than to arm an enemy for the destruction of man? This seems to have been the ground on which the Manichaeans maintained the existence of two principles. Therefore, they have imagined that Satan, not being in subjection to God, laid snares for man in opposition to the divine will, and was superior not to man only, but also to God himself. Thus, for the sake of avoiding what they dreaded as an absurdity, they have fallen into execrable prodigies of error; such as, that there are two Gods, and not one sole Creator of the world, and that the first God has been overcome by his antagonist. All, however, who think piously and reverently concerning the power of God, acknowledge that the evil did not take place except by his permission. For, in the first place, it must be conceded, that God was not in ignorance of the event which was about to occur; and then, that he could have prevented it, had he seen fit to do so. But in speaking of permission, I understand that he had appointed whatever he wished to be done. Here, indeed, a difference arises on the part of many, who suppose Adam to have been so left to his own free will, that God would not have him fall. They take for granted, what I allow them, that nothing is less probable than that God should he regarded as the cause of sin, which he has avenged with so many and such severe penalties. When I say, however, that Adam did not fall without the ordination and will of God, I do not so take it as if sin had ever been pleasing to Him, or as if he simply wished that the precept which he had given should be violated. So far as the fall of Adam was the subversion of equity, and of well-constituted order, so far as it was contumacy against the Divine Law-giver, and the transgression of righteousness, certainly it was against the will of God; yet none of these things render it impossible that, for a certain cause, although to us unknown, he might will the fall of man. It offends the ears of some, when it is said God willed this fall; but what else, I pray, is the permission of Him, who has the power of preventing, and in whose hand the whole matter is placed, but his will? I wish that men would rather suffer themselves to be judged by God, than that, with profane temerity, they should pass judgment upon him; but this is the arrogance of the flesh to subject God to its own test. I hold it as a settled axiom, that nothing is more unsuitable to the character of God than for us to say that man was created by Him for the purpose of being placed in a condition of suspense and doubt; wherefore I conclude, that, as it became the Creator, he had before determined with himself what should be man’s future condition. Hence the unskilful rashly infer, that man did not sin by free choice. For he himself perceives, being convicted by the testimony of his own conscience, that he has been too free in sinning. Whether he sinned by necessity, or by contingency, is another question; respecting which see the Institution, and the treatise on Predestination..." "1. Now the serpent was more subtil In this chapter, Moses explains, that man, after he had been deceived by Satan revolted from his Maker, became entirely changed and so degenerate, that the image of God, in which he had been formed, was obliterated. He then declares, that the whole world, which had been created for the sake of man, fell together with him from its primary original; and that in this ways much of its native excellence was destroyed...
The reason I am Orthodox is because, no matter what I speculate, I believe 100% that what the Eastern Orthodox Church teaches, and has taught everywhere and always, is right. One cannot say "I am Catholic, a little bit." When you say you are Calvinist, I must assume you believe 100% of his teaching. But you deny that.
So, I am asking you again, are you a Calvinist? Or do you simply accept some of his teachinhgs, in which case you could say "I am 10% Calvinist" or "somewhat of a Calvinist" or "so-so Calvinist," etc.? If you say that you are a Calvinist then your theology is, by necessity, 100% Calivnist. I believe you would disagree.
My speculations are not always Orthodoxy. But my specilations are, admittedly, just that &$150; speculations. What I believe and trust 100% is the Orthodox Church teaching. If I state what the EOC teaches, I reference it. Otherwise, what I write is my own speculation and should be taken as such. Again, I don't ever remember any other Reformed Protestant on this Forum claiming that Adam and Eve had free will. That's why I suggested you take it up with them.
Saying that God ordained the fall does not deny the free will of the first man
Forgetting that foreknowledge is not the same as preordaining, explain how this fits into the Calvinist mindset. If God controls everything, including our will ( our ancestral parents' included), then it is not free. If He does not control our will, then He is not in control. If our fallen will always chooses evil (that's debatable), then God does not control our will and therefore is not in control. If He controls our fallen will, then we sin because God wills it.
This is not the issue in the Church. God created the world knowing what our free choices will be. We can neither enhance nor diminish His Plan. Nor can we change its course. Our will and freedom do not affect God. They only affect ourselves.
The Apostles were not baptized, so (according to your theology that we always choose evil) they could not have chosen to follow Christ. Did He compel them? Did He put a "spell" on them?
By the same logic, the OT righteous could not have chosen God, so they must have been compelled. What kind of "righteousness" is that?! Was Job not a righteous man? Was he not fallen?
And truly, Kosta, only in Christ do we have true freedom. Whom the Son sets free is free indeed
If you mean freedom from the world, and sin, on that we agree fully. But in Christ our will is not free. Those who are in heaven are not free to sin. Our ancestral parents were not free to sin either. One could speculate that not even God, Who is absolute Freedom, is free to sin (although that would be another mind-twisting topic because it's not a matter of His will but of His essence).