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To: kosta50
If you are a Christian you would not call dead people dead. Saints are in heaven; they have seen God. The bible tells us that the kingdom of heaven inside of us, in our Christian hearts, that God abides in us, and where God is His saints are too.

You are changing the subject and challenging my faith rather than even discussing the issue. NO WHERE in the bible does anyone bow his head or otherwise and ask a dead person, and we know who they are, to pray for them.

4,820 posted on 01/10/2007 5:35:58 AM PST by DungeonMaster (Acts 17:11 also known as sola scriptura.)
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To: DungeonMaster
1433. When did God tell anyone to pray to human beings?

When the Catholic Church teaches us that prayer to the Saints is right and useful, it is God teaching us that truth through His Church. But the doctrine is clearly enough indicated in Scripture also. I have mentioned Abraham's prayer for Sodom. The Jews asked Moses to go to speak to God on their behalf. God Himself said to Eliphaz, the Themanite, "My wrath is kindled against thee . . . but my servant Job shall pray for you. His face I will accept, that folly be not imputed to you." Job XLII., 8. Earlier in that same book we read, "Call now if there will be any that will answer thee, and turn to some of the Saints." V., 1. His enemies meant that Job was too wicked to be heard, but they knew that it was lawful to invoke the Saints. Long after the death of Jeremiah, Onias said of that prophet, "This is the lover of his brethren and of the people of Israel. This is he that prayeth much for the people and for all the holy city; Jeremiah, the prophet of God." 2 Mach. XV., 14. St. James says that "the prayer of a just man availeth much." If his prayer is valuable, it is worth while to ask his prayers. If you say, "Yes. That is all right whilst a man is still in this life and on earth," I ask whether you think he has less power when in heaven with God? In Rev. VIII., 4, St. John says that he saw "the prayers of the Saints ascending up before God from the hand of an angel." If I can ask my own mother to pray for me whilst she is still in this life, surely I can do so when she is with God! She does not know less when she rejoices in the Vision of God; she has not less interest in me; and she is not less charitably disposed towards me then. We Catholics believe in the Communion of Saints, and are in communion with them. But for you the doctrine of the Apostles Creed, "I believe in the Communion of Saints," must be a meaningless formula. Christ is not particularly honored by our ignoring those who loved and served Him best, and whom He loves so much.

4,824 posted on 01/10/2007 5:43:30 AM PST by bornacatholic
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To: DungeonMaster
dead person, and we know who they are,

I don't see questioning this as a change of subject. But to be clear I'll stipulate the "NO WHERE ...", while stating the obvious, that that means one to Catholics and Orthodox and another to most Protestants.

I think it's very important that while they have died, they are not dead, and that consequently characterizing them as dead is really a mischaracterization and skews the consideration of the question.

You got your Witch of Endor, who presumably able to use mojo to compel Samuel to come up from Sheol. But then you have Jesus' declaration about the Patriarchs living to God. It's not a slam-dunk.

4,825 posted on 01/10/2007 5:43:49 AM PST by Mad Dawg (horate hoti ex ergon dikaioutai anthropos kai ouk ek pisteos monon; Jas 2:24)
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To: DungeonMaster
You are changing the subject and challenging my faith rather than even discussing the issue

Well, the same goes for you. You rpoblem is that you just can't accept that some people don't believe what you believe.

For the last time (and this is not challenging your faith, it's the reason why we do things), we believe the Saints are alive and abide in the Heveanly Kingdom, as God does, in our Christian hearts, mystically and miraculously, just as angels do. Since they are "at hand" we believe we can reach them. You don't. That's fine. Hasta la vista baby!

4,871 posted on 01/10/2007 9:18:12 AM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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