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To: HarleyD; All
Apparently you haven't read New Advent. This is not Catholic teaching I regret to say.

I read the quote you put up and I think that "inward sacrifice of obedience unto death" and "by this perfect love with which He laid down his life for His friends," are more and other than the merely exemp;ary notion which I took you to say it advocated.

(The link goes to something about Perseverance, BTW. What's up with that?)

Try .

Okay I got to the end of it and right where you stop quoting it goes on to say:

and drew all things to Himself; it was by this that He wrought our Atonement and Reconciliation with God, "making peace through the blood of His Cross".
Plenty blood there.

And the article is very enthusiastic about Anselm.

I htink we MAY have a "term of art" problem. It's not just the Blood of Jesus, is it? I mean isn't the HIS intention in teh shedding of His Blood essential? A lamb goes to sacrificial slaughtger without will. The Lord chooses to shed His Blood. The choice is part of the deal, isn't it?

And as to the "esse" ("ousia" for the Orthodoc in the audience? [ feel free to mock and correct me]) of atonement, what I get from the article is it's WAY to big for even Catholics to say, "Here's what it is, conversation over." But Sacrifice and Satisfaction essentially invovling the death of the Lord and a kind of objective transation involving GOd, Jesus, and possible the devil, is done on our behalf.

If it's any help, I would say that without the "objective transaction" and its benefits all the "example" in the world would not be helpful in any way.

The example shows us the dreadfulness of sin and the peril of our situation. It shows the ultimate obedience to the first commandment, and what that means "on the ground". It shows what God is and what Love is, and how, as a guy I was talking too a while back said, "mercy is the perfection of justice," which I take to be almost a ystical statement.

So the example is wonderful, but by itself it wouldn't do me a stitch of good.

5,534 posted on 01/12/2007 6:33:25 PM PST by Mad Dawg ('Shut up,' he explained.)
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To: Mad Dawg; annalex; kawaii; Kolokotronis; kosta50; D-fendr; Blogger; P-Marlowe; jo kus; ...
Well if you still doubt what I'm stating then I would suggest reading post 5584 or Catholicity.com on the Doctrine of Atonement. Please note St. Gregory is mentioned in the article but it wasn't until St. Anselm came along 1000 years later that the Church bought into it.

As far as Kolo's position, I believe the Orthodox has always held there not to be a need for the blood atonement. I think St. Gregory's comments sound reasonable but are contray to scriptures (a few provided by Dr. E). The traditional view of the western church fathers, couched in the aboved article, is that until St. Anselm was to believe that without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sin.

5,648 posted on 01/13/2007 3:52:23 AM PST by HarleyD ("...even the one whom He will choose, He will bring near Himself." Num 16:5)
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