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To: kosta50; The_Reader_David; Kolokotronis; Mad Dawg
A Reformed Protestant, or for that matter any Protestant, is under no obligation to agree with any existing understanding of the Holy Scripture, but is perfectly free to interpret the Holy Script as he or she sees fit.

Not true. A Reformed Protestant is incomparable to "any Protestant". Our views are relatively distinct and definable. You have been shown confessions to which we adhere, along with the works of Calvin, Luther, and a number of authors of like minds. You have seen with your own eyes the consistency with which we post.

Churches which are explicitly Reformed have the power to "excommunicate" members who openly proclaim non-Reformed views.

One can be a Southern Baptist and believe in free will, just as one can be a Southern Baptist and be Reformed, and deny the free will. So, when one says "I am a Southern Baptist" there is a entire spectrum of possible beliefs he or she may hold that may or may not correspond to other members of his or her congregation.

Your first sentence is correct. Your second is completely false. You selected one difference among members of the SBC. It just so happens it is the largest difference of view, IMO. After that, you will be hard pressed to find significant differences in any way approaching the importance of the first. All SBCs are pledged to the Baptist Faith and Message, a confession that is compatible with, although a wishy-washy version of, many of the Reformed confessions. There is no "wide spectrum", as you say, on other fundamental issues. Your characterization is just not correct.

But as an Orthodox or Catholic believer, I don't have that luxury to cherry-pick what i want to believe and what i don't want to, and still call myself Orthodox or Catholic. I can't profess filioque and say that I am Orthodox. I can't profess Protestant redemption theology and remain Orthodox.

That isn't true either. :) Every time I say you guys are all programmed to follow like robots, you all come out to say how free you are to believe in whatever you want on issues that haven't been ruled upon yet by the Magisterium/Consensus Patrum. But now, when you need to show unity, then you don't have the luxury to cherry-pick. How convenient! :) It doesn't wash. The truth is that we both have some leeway to hold our own views within our respective faiths, and also that either of us could be kicked out of our churches if we pushed a certain type of view too far.

Since Protestants are under no obligation to follow any particular rule, but their own interpretation of the Bible, and their own conceptualization of the faith based on personal preferences, intellect, culture, etc., my statement that it is a man-made, tailor-made to one's individual taste and preference religion is not an "unfortunate lack of understanding of the Reformed Faith," FK, is it?

Since the premise is completely false, of course it is most certainly an "unfortunate lack of understanding of the Reformed Faith". But I've learned to live with it. :) You still appear to believe that any Christian who is not Orthodox or Catholic belongs in the same group. I continue to prove that it is not so, but yet to no avail. Oh well.

I do not think there is any such thing as the Protestant "religion". Christianity is about a relationship with Christ, period. That relationship can and does happen among members of many different faiths which call themselves Christian.

8,265 posted on 02/01/2007 12:34:10 AM PST by Forest Keeper
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To: Forest Keeper; The_Reader_David; Kolokotronis; annalex; Mad Dawg
Our views are relatively distinct and definable

[Double] Predestination and bondage of the will...but other member in your church don't have to share that, and still be whatever your church calls itself, right?

Churches which are explicitly Reformed have the power to "excommunicate" members who openly proclaim non-Reformed views

You still appear to believe that any Christian who is not Orthodox or Catholic belongs in the same group

I don't believe it, I know it. Because none of those groups is in either particualar Apostolic Church. That much is clear and couldn't be more clear. It's not a presumption; it's a fact: they are all outside the Church. Correct. That's why we have so many Protestant denominations. So, which one is the 'true' one? My homeowners' association has the 'power' to force members to pick only certain kind of a fence...

After that, you will be hard pressed to find significant differences in any way approaching the importance of the first

Protestant congregations consist of like-minded people, like political parties. They tolerate some degree of deviation from the 'official truth,' but the limits are set. Those who disagree go to a different assembly or start one of their own, just like a political party.

Every time I say you guys are all programmed to follow like robots, you all come out to say how free you are to believe in whatever you want on issues that haven't been ruled upon yet by the Magisterium/Consensus Patrum

No, FK, the reformed believe they are 'programmed' by God. We believe in free will. We are not programmed, we choose to put our trust in God's Church because God gave us the opportunity to do so and we accept it.

Naturally, since different people are at a different levels of spiritual maturity, they will have different views and conceptualizations; being human they will have some doubts even if they are already spiritually mature, and especially then, not so much as far as their faith is concerned, but doubt in themselves of being worthy of God's blessings.

This is precisely why no one must presume to be individually 'right' or demand others to follow his or her conclusions, but those of the 2,000-year old faith given to the Church beginning with the Apostles.

We are always keenly aware that we believe and worship in an imperfect manner, and that arrogating [self-]righteousness is the last thing on our free-to-do agenda. Our only reminder is to, after all has been said and done, to doubt onself first and the Church never.

Protestants on the other hand assume the right to interpet the Scripture no matter what level of spiritual growth they happen to be. It is, as you say, a 'relationship with Christ' that makes up Protestant religion. It's a personal religion based on one's own interpretation of some version of the Bible.

You have seen with your own eyes the consistency with which we post.

I have seen a dozen or so like-minded people of Reformed persuasion who pat each other on their backs. I have seen Lutherans and Anglicans whose posts resembled none of the Reformed-minded members' of this forum. I have seen Armenians who claim to be every way 'Reformed,' with whom the 'orthodox' Reformed violently disagree.

In case you forgot, there are some 30 thousand different Protestant denominations who share nothing in common but the basic elements: One God (all), Holy Bible (some), Holy Trinity (some), dual nature of Christ (some), Creed (some). And even in those areas where they do agree, they differ.

Christianity is about a relationship with Christ, period

Herein lies the rub, FK. By that simplistic definition, based on personal understandings and preferences, as one sees fit, anyone who calls on the name of Jesus is a Christian! The Mormons, the Trinity-denying Protestants, the Gnostics, the Arians, the Nestorians, and the list goes on.

Christ left His Church to the Apostles and the Apostles to their successors in an unbroken lineage and in faith once delievered and unchanged (some are closer, very close, i.e. High Anglicans and many Lutherans; others couldn't be farther, but all are outside the Church, by their own choice).

8,269 posted on 02/01/2007 4:21:32 AM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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