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To: Joseph DeMaistre

Under no circumstances would I ever demean my brothers and sisters who are Catholics, but there is no evidence that Mary continued her life as a virgin.

True, there may be no evidence that she wasn't a lifelong virgin, with the exception of Scriptural references to Jesus' brothers. But that is a powerful exception. If you accept the references to Jesus' brothers, you really have to do a lot of extrascriptural bending and spinning to make her a perpetual virgin.

Bottom line for me, with no disrepect toward other opinions, Scripture rules. Luther's opinions are extra-Scriptural


2 posted on 12/08/2006 8:31:57 PM PST by norge
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To: norge

No evidence. There is plenty of evidence dating from the Second Century. The ideas to the contrary were first proposed by the Gnostic heretics.

Oh ye of little faith.


3 posted on 12/08/2006 8:57:23 PM PST by Joseph DeMaistre (There's no such thing as relativism, only dogmatism of a different color)
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To: norge

I agree. I am Lutheran (Missourri Synod) and although Luther was a great figure in the Protestant Reformation and has his accolades, we are also very careful to note that Luther was not perfect, and not everything Luther said or did is beyond reproach. Where Luther's teachings agree with Scripture, we would agree with him; where they depart, we would remain with Scripture.

To simply throw Luther's quotes around where he was wrong on a subject and somehow use them to support an incorrect position, the original author should also use Luther's incorrect ideas and quotes later in his life about his own German countrymen and the Jews, who were both frustrating him in his later years. If the man was always right, let's use all his quotes, and not just cherry-pick the ones that further one's own incorrect views.

Luther wasn't infallible, and nobody but God is infallible. No person save Jesus Christ (God the Son, in the flesh) was infallible. Luther was wrong in his views on certain aspects of Mary. He was wrong on other things as well. We don't point them out to beat him up and savage him because of it, but I point it out because the original poster is using his incorrect quotes to further buttress his own incorrect viewpoint by saying even a Protestant believes what the Roman church teaches.


4 posted on 12/08/2006 9:02:28 PM PST by Secret Agent Man
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To: norge

The Biblical canon is extra-scriptural. What came first the oral teachings of Christ and the apostles or the Bible?

The word "Trinity" is extra-scriptural, not to mention the catechetical formulae about who Jesus was. If Christ's divinity and humanity was as plain to understand as you perhaps take for granted, the Arian heresy would never have arisen, not to mention Apollinarianism, Nestorianism, Monophysitism, Monothelitism, etc.

If every man or woman is his or her own pope, chaos is the end result.


5 posted on 12/08/2006 9:03:24 PM PST by Joseph DeMaistre (There's no such thing as relativism, only dogmatism of a different color)
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To: norge

The New Testament tells us to go to the Church when there is a dispute - such as the one about Mary's perpetual virginity - and to listen to the Chruch - (who hears you hears me) and the church, the pillar and ground of truth - teaches Mary's perpetual virginity


16 posted on 12/09/2006 5:48:12 AM PST by bornacatholic
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To: norge
If you accept the references to Jesus' brothers, you really have to do a lot of extrascriptural bending and spinning to make her a perpetual virgin.

First, show us where in Scripture it is documented that other children, i.e. brothers and sisters of Jesus, were born of the Virgin Mary.

Second, show us where in Scripture the doctrine of Sola Scriptura is specified.

25 posted on 12/10/2006 5:25:10 PM PST by Titanites
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