Mary, Mother of God

CatholicExchange.com ^ | 12-31-06 | Marcellino D'Ambrosio, Ph.D.

[Pyro7480]

Congratulations!! I think you will be a wonderful Catholic. God bless you and keep you! May the Angels and Saints always intercede for you!

[Mad Dawg]

Base your Christology on whom Jesus is, not on whom Mary was.

Well my understanding of the whole ramp-up to Ephesus and Chalcedon was the other way around -- a way I think you'd prefer: It was a Christological problem (as the article states) that raised the issue of Mary being the Theotokos. Stated too simply, if Jesus is the union in one person of the Divine and Human natures, then the child in the womb of Mary was God, and so it is proper to call Mary the God-Bearer -- the Mother of God.

As I was taught in my low-church Anglican seminary, Nestorius's objection to doing so arose out of his idea of how Jesus did not unite in His Person both natures, so the incarnation was not as "radical" or "complete" as we believe it to have been. Jesus REALLY is ONE person, He REALLY is God, He really is Human.

IF, on the other hand, Mary is NOT the Mother of God, then that which was born of her is not Divine. WHich is, well, a problem. So, to get back to your point, our Mariology arises out of and is consequent to our Christology.

And I'm confident - but have no evidence - that the Fathers were all too aware of how this might seem to be saying something like Juno or Leto or somebody was the mother of Apollo, but still felt that hey had to say that about Mary in order to hold onto the completeness of their doctrine about the Incarnation.

[Salvation]

From another thread:

The Word Among Us

Monday, January 01, 2007 Meditation Numbers 6:22-27 Mary, the Mother of God A young boy returning to school after the summer holidays was asked if he liked his new class. No! he shot back. There must be something you like! his parents prodded. Nothing! Not letting up, they encouraged him to see the positive side of his situation: There must be one good thing you can think of. He finally responded: Leaving at the end of the day! Sometimes we are like that boy, we’d rather stay comfortably in the past than move forward to an unknown future, even one that is full of potential. The Israelites acted no differently during their journey to the Promised Land. They complained often, even wanting to return to slavery in Egypt. So God sought to encourage them, as we see in this beautiful prayer of blessing. What did this blessing mean? Well, it didn’t mean automatic victory over all their enemies—but neither did it require them to be perfect. No, it was a more indiscriminate blessing, telling the people that no matter what they faced, God was with them. We too are on a pilgrimage, and as this new year unfolds, we will undoubtedly meet with good fortune as well as challenging obstacles. God’s blessing, however, will be constant. In victory or defeat, in confidence or instability, we can still know our Father’s presence, his wisdom, and his guidance. Mary is a perfect example of one who constantly lived under God’s blessing. When a sword pierced her soul at Calvary, when her Son was ridiculed and beaten, and even when he ascended to heaven and left her alone, Mary remained full of grace because she had learned the art of resting in God’s providence. So as this year opens, choose to be like Mary and surrender yourself to the Lord. If you look closely enough, you will find God’s blessings wherever you go! Father, I dedicate this year to you. I trust in all the blessings you have in store for me! May the river of your presence flow in my life! Psalm 67:2-3,5-6,8; Galatians 4:4-7; Luke 2:16-21

The Word Among Us

Monday, January 01, 2007 Meditation Numbers 6:22-27 Mary, the Mother of God A young boy returning to school after the summer holidays was asked if he liked his new class. No! he shot back. There must be something you like! his parents prodded. Nothing! Not letting up, they encouraged him to see the positive side of his situation: There must be one good thing you can think of. He finally responded: Leaving at the end of the day! Sometimes we are like that boy, we’d rather stay comfortably in the past than move forward to an unknown future, even one that is full of potential. The Israelites acted no differently during their journey to the Promised Land. They complained often, even wanting to return to slavery in Egypt. So God sought to encourage them, as we see in this beautiful prayer of blessing. What did this blessing mean? Well, it didn’t mean automatic victory over all their enemies—but neither did it require them to be perfect. No, it was a more indiscriminate blessing, telling the people that no matter what they faced, God was with them. We too are on a pilgrimage, and as this new year unfolds, we will undoubtedly meet with good fortune as well as challenging obstacles. God’s blessing, however, will be constant. In victory or defeat, in confidence or instability, we can still know our Father’s presence, his wisdom, and his guidance. Mary is a perfect example of one who constantly lived under God’s blessing. When a sword pierced her soul at Calvary, when her Son was ridiculed and beaten, and even when he ascended to heaven and left her alone, Mary remained full of grace because she had learned the art of resting in God’s providence. So as this year opens, choose to be like Mary and surrender yourself to the Lord. If you look closely enough, you will find God’s blessings wherever you go! Father, I dedicate this year to you. I trust in all the blessings you have in store for me! May the river of your presence flow in my life! Psalm 67:2-3,5-6,8; Galatians 4:4-7; Luke 2:16-21

[Blogger]

Again, I understand what the councils were trying to say.

Saying Mary is the mother of Jesus, however, does not say that Jesus was not God.

[Mad Dawg]

I wonder if there aren't some disobedient churches.

[Salvation]

I have tears in my eyes. You are the second person today who has told me that you are considering becoming a Catholic. May the Lord walk with you on your journey.

We all support you, and if there is anything we can answer for you, we will sincerely attempt it.

Blessings throughout this new year.

Tears falling now.

Your testimony is so heartfelt and real. I did not lose a child, but I lost a husband, and I know I could not have made the trek through the valley of depression without the Blessed Virgin asking Jesus to help me -- much as she asked him to help the couple at the wedding feast at Cana.

God bless you for sharing so openly.

[Blogger]

Well, we disagree on the meaning of "grace" as well. Roman Catholics see grace as something which is merited. Mary remained full of grace because she...

Protestants see grace as something which is not merited but bestowed, even while we were yet sinners....

Protestantism and Catholicism are poles apart on many issues. On other issues, we have a lot of commonality. On the common issues, we can stand together. On the other issues, it depends upon the import of those issues. As someone famous once said...On essentials unity, on non-essentials liberty, in all things charity.

How one is saved is an essential. Who Christ was is an essential. Whether priests remain celibate is not.

Where there is disagreement on an essential, expect to see some strong disagreement expressed.

[Mad Dawg]

Saying Mary is the mother of Jesus, however, does not say that Jesus was not God.

Yeah, 10-4.

I was thinking as I read what you wrote that I didn't start out thinking of Theotokos as a "title" but as a sort of "term of art". I really did come to it from the POV of Christology -- Second year, first semester, Church History, Trinitarian and Christological heresies and resolution. So I, at any rate, was not at risk for thinking that somehow Mary was older than God.

[Titanites]

I wonder if there aren't some disobedient churches.

That may be, but I doubt it. He claims to have seen "many" Catholic Churches with a statue of the Blessed Virgin Mary on the altar. I have been to many, many Catholic Churches, obedient or not, and in the US, Canada, and all over Europe and I have not seen this on even one occasion during Mass or outside Mass. Thinking about it, I suspect it is more likely he has misidentified the altar.

[Salvation]

No, I won't change my mind, because the Bible and the testimony of Elizabeth support the "Mother of my Lord, (God) point of view.

Along the way you, too, may come to take St. Elizabeth's testimony to the Blessed Virgin Mary at what we call "The Visitation" more seriously.

[RobbyS]

On side altars, yes. My wife and I were married at a side altar before a statute of the BVM. At main altars, never.

[Mad Dawg]

Roman Catholics see grace as something which is merited.

This is why we need to start posting these threads as "Caucus" threads.

Catholics believe that the Grace of God is grace, which by definition cannot be merited, as Saint Paul so clearly says. It's all grace, all gratuitous, all mercy.

Yes, we believe some stuff about works which Protestants do not believe. But if the merit/grace issue is relevant to the issue of who and what Mary is in relationship to the Incarnation, then I need some help seeing how.

[Titanites]

I am pinging you to post #69 since it is you I am mentioning. I apologize for not doing it on the original post.

[Salvation]

**Thinking about it, I suspect it is more likely he has misidentified the altar.**

I tend to agree with you.

[GourmetDan]

"As the article states -- it's about Christ being linked with Mary, His Mother."

Luke 11:26-28,

"Then it goes and takes seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there. And the final condition of that man is worse than the first." As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out, "Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you." He replied, "Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it."

Mark 3:31-35,

"Then Jesus' mother and brothers arrived. Standing outside, they sent someone in to call him. A crowd was sitting around him, and they told him, "Your mother and brothers are outside looking for you." "Who are my mother and my brothers?" he asked. Then he looked at those seated in a circle around him and said, "Here are my mother and my brothers! Whoever does God's will is my brother and sister and mother."

[Running On Empty]

You are totally wrong when you say that "Catholics see grace as something that is merited."

Accuracy is your friend.

[Mad Dawg]

In all seriousness: Do you think we are unfamiliar with those texts?

[Salvation]

The First Believer

Touched By Grace
Marcellino D'Ambrosio, Ph.D.	Email this article Discuss this article Other Articles by Marcellino D'Ambrosio, Ph.D. Printer Friendly Version
The First Believer

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December 24, 2006

The Beatitudes rank high on the list of all-time favorite Bible passages.  But what is beatitude, anyway?   In the Bible, a "blessed" person is someone who has received gifts of the greatest value, gifts that lead to true fulfillment and lasting happiness.

If I were to ask you to name the first Beatitude, you'd probably say "blessed are the poor in spirit."  According to Matthew you'd be right, but not according to Luke.  At the very beginning of his Gospel, Luke reveals that the very first Beatitude is uttered by a woman filled with the Spirit, speaking of another woman overshadowed by the Spirit.  Elizabeth says, "Blessed is she who has believed" (Lk 1:45).

Is Marian devotion important in Christian life?  This has been a bone of contention between Catholics and Protestants for nearly 500 years.

Let's look at the evidence in just the first chapter of Luke.  First, the Angel Gabriel honors her with the greeting "Hail, full of grace" (Lk 1:29).  Then Elizabeth prophesies "blessed are you among women."  Next the prophet John leaps for joy in his mother's womb at the sound of Mary's voice.  Then, in her response to Elizabeth, Mary prophesies "all generations will call me blessed" (Lk 1:48).

But it is Elizabeth's final words to Mary that hold the key to understanding why she is she is to honored: namely, her faith.

One of the battle-cries of the Protestant Reformation was "Faith Alone!"  One key conviction that united the many disparate strands of the Reformation was that it is impossible to earn God's favor by our good works, but rather we receive His love as a pure gift, a grace, through faith.

Now consider Mary.  Did she crisscross the Mediterranean planting Churches like Paul?  Did she give eloquent sermons like Stephen (Acts 7)?  Did she govern the Church like Peter?  No.  Her claim to fame is that she simply said yes to God.  She believed He could do as He said and would do as He said.

But true faith is not just intellectual conviction that God exists or that He can do thus and such.  Faith involves entrusting oneself, abandoning oneself to God, willing to submit to His will.  That's why Paul talks about "the obedience of faith" (Rom 16:26).  She surrendered her plan for her life, and yielded to God's plan.  And she did this not once, but again and again, even when He left her to begin His public ministry.  And when that ministry led to the horror of Calvary, her faith stood its ground at the foot of the Cross.

So Catholics honor Mary for being the perfect example of the greatest Protestant virtue.  Ironic isn't it?  And the deepest meaning of that disputed doctrine, the Immaculate Conception, is that it was the grace of God working mysteriously from the moment of conception that made possible Mary's exemplary life of faith.  Even her faith is a gift of His grace.  It's all grace, according to Catholic doctrine.

Mary, of course, knew this.  That's why she responded to Elizabeth's praise with the humble, exuberant prayer known as the Magnificat: "My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior."  She is like the crystal-clear pool that reflects the sun's rays back to the heavens.  So no one needs to fear that honor given her will detract from the majesty of her divine Son.  She deflects all the praise given her right back to God, the source of her greatness.

So the answer is that Marian devotion is necessary in Christian life.  But what is true devotion to Mary according to the fathers of the Second Vatican Council?  Not sentimental piety or gullible preoccupation with every rumored apparition.  But rather, imitation of her virtues, particularly her faith (Lumen Gentium 67).

Dr. D'Ambrosio studied under Avery Cardinal Dulles for his Ph.D. in historical theology and taught for many years at the University of Dallas. He now directs www.crossroadsinitiative.com, which offers Catholic resources for RCIA, adult faith formation, and teens, with a special emphasis on the Year of the Eucharist, the Theology of the Body, the early Church Fathers, and the sacrament of confirmation.

(This article originally appeared in Our Sunday Visitor and is used by permission of the author.)

[Blogger]

I asked a non-theologically trained person what the term "Mother of God" meant to them. Needless to say, they did not come up with "it was a term to combat Nestorianism" :)

Mother of Jesus will suffice. And, for Salvation's sake, Mother of my Lord is also biblical.

Mother of God is not a biblical term and has many implications.
1)One COULD think that this means that Mary was older than God (not the councils intent, I know, but that's what my non-theological friend thought it implied so it is a real issue)
2)Since God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, indivisible, Mary is the mother of the Father and the Holy Spirit (also not true, but it is a possible source of confusion)

By calling Mary the mother of Jesus, you firmly place Mary as Christ's biological mother and then can define Christology not upon whom Mary was, but who Christ is.

Jesus was incarnate God- eternally preexistent and the Savior of Mary and all Christians. He was Mary's Lord as well as Elizabeth's and ours. Jesus was God incarnated into human flesh. Mary gave birth to Jesus, yet, he brought His Godhood with him. He did not get it from her.

[Titanites]

Do you take those versus to mean Jesus is disrespecting his Mother?