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To: Vicomte13; HarleyD; Forest Keeper; wmfights; Dr. Eckleburg; xzins; P-Marlowe; Gamecock

"Also consult 2 Maccabbees for an instance of prayers of atonement for the souls of the dead."

Idol worshipers were to be stoned in Israel. There was to be no mercy shown to them so how does your reference to Judas praying for idol worshiping soldiers who were killed for their sin, prove you point? In fact, aren't those who die worshiping idols as far as the Roman Church is concerned, guilty of a mortal sin and beyond the mercy of God?


37 posted on 01/29/2007 10:19:27 AM PST by blue-duncan
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To: blue-duncan; Vicomte13; HarleyD; Forest Keeper; wmfights; Dr. Eckleburg; xzins; P-Marlowe; ...
In fact, aren't those who die worshiping idols as far as the Roman Church is concerned, guilty of a mortal sin and beyond the mercy of God?

Maybe they were just venerating them??

:>)

38 posted on 01/29/2007 10:21:17 AM PST by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and proud of it! Supporting our troops means praying for them to WIN!)
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To: blue-duncan
2 Macc 12....44 (For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead,) 45 And because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them.

Douai Commentary...45 "With godliness"... Judas hoped that these men who died fighting for the cause of God and religion, might find mercy: either because they might be excused from mortal sin by ignorance; or might have repented of their sin, at least at their death.

46It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.

46 "It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead"... Here is an evident and undeniable proof of the practice of praying for the dead under the old law, which was then strictly observed by the Jews, and consequently could not be introduced at that time by Judas, their chief and high priest, if it had not been always their custom.

88 posted on 01/29/2007 12:21:04 PM PST by bornacatholic
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To: blue-duncan

"...so how does your reference to Judas praying for idol worshiping soldiers who were killed for their sin, prove you point?"

Let's be clear here, my point is PROVEN by Jesus himself. Jesus said "Gehenna", which means Purgatory AND Hell, same place. It is reinforced by the parable Jesus told of the cruel lender, how he was handed over to the torturers UNTIL every last penny was paid. That is nasty, but there is a temporal duration, and the payment of the debt is exacted in this way, the hard way. The easy way was to do as Jesus put in the prayer: "forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors".
And indeed, Jesus TOLD US the standard of our own judgment. He said we will be judged by the standard by which we judge. That's God speaking there. So, if you're poring through the book trying to find a standard of sacrifice or a standard of automatic atonement, you may as well stop. Jesus told you the standard for your judgment: as you have judged, by the standards you have judged, so shall you be judged. And "Our Father...forgive us our debts as [i.e. "in the measure that"] we forgive our debtors..."
Jesus told us all of that.
On what authority do we disregard him?
Paul's?
Not very wise. The servant is not greater than the master. Whatever Paul meant, it can't override Jesus.

In the specific instance, the wearers of the amulets were not stoned. They died in battle, and the Bible tells us it was for that sin. So, they lost their lives for it. The question then was: how terrible should their punishment of purification be in Genhinnom? And Judas Maccabaeus and his followers made sacrifices which were accounted righteous in order to atone for the sins of the dead.

What this demonstrates is that the dead are not destroyed. Their souls go on. And that the sins they committed in their lives go with them into the afterlife. It further demonstrates that the prayers of the living are helpful for the dead.

This all part of the Catholic doctrine.
And this is where it comes from: the Bible.


195 posted on 01/29/2007 2:01:28 PM PST by Vicomte13 (Et alors?)
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