Trying to determine if Jesus existed

The Buffalo News ^ | 1/29/2007 | JAY TOKASZ

[MeanWestTexan]

No, Jesus is mentioned twice by Josephus and similar events (the crucifiction of a heretic most presume to be Jesus) are mentioned by Rabbinical sources hardly sympathetic to the Christians.

Also, the letters of Peter (an eye witness -- who is listed in Roman secular records as being executed for inciting civil unrest) make no sense without the basic events stated in the 4 gospels. Peter's letters are generally considered the oldest portion of the new testament --- maybe 10-25 years after the crucifiction.

[Between the Lines]

Unfortunately, the Josephus passage is obviously a later editorial insert.

There are actually two mentions of Jesus by Josephus. While one passasge is considered a forgery the authenticity of the other is almost universally acknowledged.

But the younger Ananus who, as we said, received the high priesthood, was of a bold disposition and exceptionally daring; he followed the party of the Sadducees, who are severe in judgment above all the Jews, as we have already shown. As therefore Ananus was of such a disposition, he thought he had now a good opportunity, as Festus was now dead, and Albinus was still on the road; so he assembled a council of judges, and brought it before the brother of Jesus the so-called Christ, whose name was James, together with some others, and having accused them as law-breakers, he delivered them over to be stoned. -- Antiquities 20.9.1

[lastchance]

Thanks for the information. It will hearten you to know that the scholars of the Jesus Seminar are all working as weatherman for their local tv news. To maintain their scientific accuracy in their new field they know use a dart board instead of marbles.

[MeanWestTexan]

Basically, until recently, the primary dispute has always been not whether the fundamental, core, historical (i.e., the preaching and the crucifiction) events ocurred (which most have agreed they did), but rather the significance of the events, and, of course, the issue of resurrection, which is the real dispute.

[wideawake]

Which begs the question.....what made God?

He is His own existence. He was not "made."

[trisham]

Feh. This is mishegas.

[Bubba Ho-Tep]

Wrong, Flavius Josephus mentions Jesus in his history.

Almost everyone who has seriously looked at the Josephus passage agrees that it was a later interpolation by a Christian scribe. Stylistically they simply don't match. Keep in mind that there are no "original" versions of the work extant. They're handwritten copies of handwritten copies of handwritten copies, and the people doing the copying, for the most part, were Christian monks.

[Between the Lines]

If there were overwhelming historical or Scientific evidence of Jesus existence, of what value would our faith be? The lack of evidence is by God's design.

[Fitzcarraldo]

Outside of the current instance of our local universe (the matter, energy and events contained in the visible, expanding universe), is there any universal or absolute time standard?

[MeanWestTexan]

There are two FJ passages, one, is indeed, (IMHO) highly interpolated.

The other (with none of the disputed adoption of Jesus as Christ/Mesiah) not so.

[presidio9]

Almost everyone who has seriously looked at the Josephus passage agrees that it was a later interpolation by a Christian scribe.

Source please. If a Christian monk were going to hoax Jesus into Josephus, I'm guessing that He would appear in more than a few lines. That being said, I don't doubt that the part about Jesus being the Christ was inserted. But there is no reason to doubt that Josephus mentioned the man.

[Ping-Pong]

"My GOD, my GOD, why hast thou forsaken me?", Christ's prayer and plea on the cross. It was recently taught to me that this plea, taken from Psalms 22 was actually a means of teaching that Jesus used.

Written 1,000 years before Jesus that crucifixion Psalms tells of His being despised, of things He would say and that would be said, about His bones being out of joint when His arms were pulled from socket on the cross, His thirst, lots being cast for His garments and his hands and feet being pierced. The 8th verse tells what the words of the High Priest were at the crucifixion (Matt.27:41).

To me, instead of trying to explain or understand why He would say He had been forsaken it makes sense that He was teaching us that prophecy was being fulfilled, from 1,000 years before His time.

And these people DARE to say there was no Christ.

[wagglebee]

Feh. This is mishegas.

HUH?!

[RadioAstronomer]

Outside of the current instance of our local universe (the matter, energy and events contained in the visible, expanding universe), is there any universal or absolute time standard?

Not that I know of. Time itself started with the Big bang. Thusly "before the big bang" is meaningless.

[RightWhale]

is there any universal or absolute time standard?

Railroad time is the standard time.

[presidio9]

[Enosh]

brother of Jesus the so-called Christ, whose name was James

I believe that James and Jesus were siblings, one way or another, is soundly refuted by the Church.

[fish hawk]

Ever heard of Josephus? Just the answer "not true" tells me you are a Darwin lover. Guess what, God invented science.

[Fitzcarraldo]

TIME BEGAN AT KIPTON: A wreck that occurred there in 1891 led to the adoption of dependable railroad time

[Deut28]

For anyone interested in reading a top notch rebuttal of the Jesus 'Seminar' by one of the top Jesus scholars, check out this paper by N.T. Wright: Five Gospels But No Gospel: Jesus and the Seminar

And Wright's wonderful other writings: Wright Lectures and Articles