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Please give me a few minutes to post the Scriptural basis for this thread. Thank you!

1 posted on 02/02/2007 4:40:16 PM PST by NYer
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To: Lady In Blue; Salvation; narses; SMEDLEYBUTLER; redhead; Notwithstanding; nickcarraway; Romulus; ...

In keeping with guidelines posted by the Religion Moderator, we are posting this thread (and future ones) a series on the Early Church Fathers, as a Catholic/Orthodox Caucus. Protestants are welcome to post comments but restraint from attacks, would be appreciated. This thread is posted to inform, support and defend the historic orgins of the Catholic and Orthodox Churches.

2 posted on 02/02/2007 4:41:50 PM PST by NYer ("Where the bishop is present, there is the Catholic Church" - Ignatius of Antioch)
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To: All
Scriptural Basis

"And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost: And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed [art] thou among women, and blessed [is] the fruit of thy womb. And whence [is] this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy. And blessed [is] she that believed: for there shall be a performance of those things which were told her from the Lord. And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord, And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. For He hath regarded the low estate of His handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. For He that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy [is] His name." - Luke 1:41-49

"And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine. Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come. His mother saith unto the servants, Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it. And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece. Jesus saith unto them, Fill the waterpots with water. And they filled them up to the brim. And he saith unto them, Draw out now, and bear unto the governor of the feast. And they bare it. When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew;) the governor of the feast called the bridegroom, And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now. This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him." - John 2:3-11

"And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and [to] his throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days." - Revelation 12:1-6

3 posted on 02/02/2007 4:43:53 PM PST by NYer ("Where the bishop is present, there is the Catholic Church" - Ignatius of Antioch)
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To: All
Catechism of the Catholic Church

64. "Through the prophets, God forms his people in the hope of salvation, in the expectation of a new and everlasting Covenant intended for all, to be written on their hearts. [Cf. Is 2:2-4 ; Jer 31:31-34 ; Heb 10:16 .] The prophets proclaim a radical redemption of the People of God, purification from all their infidelities, a salvation which will include all the nations. [Cf. Ezek 3:6; Is 49:5-6; Is 53:11 .] Above all, the poor and humble of the Lord will bear this hope.  Such holy women as Sarah, Rebecca, Rachel, Miriam, Deborah, Hannah, Judith and Esther kept alive the hope of Israel's salvation. The purest figure among them is Mary. [Cf. Ezek 2:3 ; Lk 1:38 .]"

148. "The Virgin Mary most perfectly embodies the obedience of faith. By faith Mary welcomes the tidings and promise brought by the angel Gabriel, believing that 'with God nothing will be impossible' and so giving her assent:  'Behold I am the handmaid of the Lord; let it be (done) to me according to your word.' [Lk 1:37-38; cf. Gen 18:14.] Elizabeth greeted her: 'Blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfilment of what was spoken to her from the Lord.' [Lk 1:45 .] It is for this faith that all generations have called Mary blessed. [Cf. Lk 1:48.]"

273. "Only faith can embrace the mysterious ways of God's almighty power.  This faith glories in its weaknesses in order to draw to itself Christ's power. [Cf. 2 Cor 12:9 ; Phil 4:13.] The Virgin Mary is the supreme model of this faith, for she believed that 'nothing will be impossible with God', and was able to magnify the Lord: 'For he who is mighty has done great things for me, and holy is his name.' [Lk 1:37, 49.]"

487. "What the Catholic faith believes about Mary is based on what it believes about Christ, and what it teaches about Mary illumines in turn its faith in Christ."

490. "To become the mother of the Saviour, Mary 'was enriched by God with gifts appropriate to such a role.' [LG 56.] The angel Gabriel at the moment of the annunciation salutes her as 'full of grace'. [Lk 1:28 .] In fact, in order for Mary to be able to give the free assent of her faith to the announcement of her vocation, it was necessary that she be wholly borne by God's grace."

491. "Through the centuries the Church has become ever more aware that Mary, 'full of grace' through God, [Lk 1:28 .] was redeemed from the moment of her conception. That is what the dogma of the Immaculate Conception confesses, as Pope Pius IX proclaimed in 1854:  The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Saviour of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin. [Pius IX, Ineffabilis Deus (1854): DS 2803.]"

492. "The 'splendour of an entirely unique holiness' by which Mary is 'enriched from the first instant of her conception' comes wholly from Christ:  she is 'redeemed, in a more exalted fashion, by reason of the merits of her Son'. [LG 53, 56.] The Father blessed Mary more than any other created person 'in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places' and chose her 'in Christ before the foundation of the world, to be holy and blameless before him in love'. [Cf. Eph 1:3-4 .]"

493. "The Fathers of the Eastern tradition call the Mother of God 'the All-Holy' (Panagia), and celebrate her as 'free from any stain of sin, as though fashioned by the Holy Spirit and formed as a new creature'. [LG 56.] By the grace of God Mary remained free of every personal sin her whole life long.  'Let it be done to me according to your word. . .'"

494. "At the announcement that she would give birth to 'the Son of the Most High' without knowing man, by the power of the Holy Spirit, Mary responded with the obedience of faith, certain that 'with God nothing will be impossible':  'Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord; let it be (done) to me according to your word.' [Lk 1:28-38 ; cf. Rom 1:5 .] Thus, giving her consent to God's word, Mary becomes the mother of Jesus. Espousing the divine will for salvation wholeheartedly, without a single sin to restrain her, she gave herself entirely to the person and to the work of her Son; she did so in order to serve the mystery of redemption with him and dependent on him, by God's grace: [Cf. LG 56.]  As St. Irenaeus says, 'Being obedient she became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race.' [St. Irenaeus, Adv. haeres. 3, 22, 4: PG 7/1, 959A.] Hence not a few of the early Fathers gladly assert. . .: 'The knot of Eve's disobedience was untied by Mary's obedience: what the virgin Eve bound through her disbelief, Mary loosened by her faith.' [St. Irenaeus, Adv. haeres. 3, 22, 4: PG 7/1, 959A.]  Comparing her with Eve, they call Mary 'the Mother of the living' and frequently claim: 'Death through Eve, life through Mary.' [LC 56; St. Epiphanius, Panarion 2, 78, 18: PG 42, 728CD-729AB; St. Jerome, Ep. 22, 21: PL 22, 408.]"

495. "Called in the Gospels 'the mother of Jesus', Mary is acclaimed by Elizabeth, at the prompting of the Spirit and even before the birth of her son, as 'the mother of my Lord'. [Lk 1:43 ; Jn 2:1 ; Jn 19:25 ; cf. Mt 13:55 ; et al.]  In fact, the One whom she conceived as man by the Holy Spirit, who truly became her Son according to the flesh, was none other than the Father's eternal Son, the second person of the Holy Trinity. Hence the Church confesses that Mary is truly 'Mother of God' (Theotokos). [Council of Ephesus (431): DS 251.]"

496. "From the first formulations of her faith, the Church has confessed that Jesus was conceived solely by the power of the Holy Spirit in the womb of the Virgin Mary, affirming also the corporeal aspect of this event: Jesus was conceived 'by the Holy Spirit without human seed'. [Council of the Lateran (649): DS 503; cf. DS 10-64.] The Fathers see in the virginal conception the sign that it truly was the Son of God who came in a humanity like our own. Thus St. Ignatius of Antioch at the beginning of the second century says:  You are firmly convinced about our Lord, who is truly of the race of David according to the flesh, Son of God according to the will and power of God, truly born of a virgin,. . . he was truly nailed to a tree for us in his flesh under Pontius Pilate. . . he truly suffered, as he is also truly risen. [St. Ignatius of Antioch, Ad Smyrn 1-2: Apostolic Fathers, ed. J. B. Lightfoot (London: Macmillan, 1889), 11/2, 289-293; SCh 10, 154-156; cf. Rom 1:3; Jn 1:13.]"

497. "The Gospel accounts understand the virginal conception of Jesus as a divine work that surpasses all human understanding and possibility: [Mt 1:18-25 ; Lk 1:26-38 .] 'That which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit', said the angel to Joseph about Mary his fiancee. [Mt 1:20 .] The Church sees here the fulfilment of the divine promise given through the prophet Isaiah: 'Behold, a virgin shall conceive and bear a son.' [Is 7:14 vLXX; quoted  in Mt 1:23 vGreek.]"

498. "People are sometimes troubled by the silence of St. Mark's Gospel and the New Testament Epistles about Jesus' virginal conception. Some might wonder if we were merely dealing with legends or theological constructs not claiming to be history. To this we must respond: Faith in the virginal conception of Jesus met with the lively opposition, mockery or incomprehension of non-believers, Jews and pagans alike; [Cf. St. Justin, Dial. 99, 7: PG 6, 708-709; Origen, Contra Celsum 1, 32, 69: PG 11, 720-721; et al.] so it could hardly have been motivated by  pagan mythology or by some adaptation to the ideas of the age. The meaning of this event is accessible only to faith, which understands in it the 'connection of these mysteries with one another' [Dei Filius 4: DS 3016.] in the totality of Christ's mysteries, from his Incarnation to his Passover. St. Ignatius of Antioch already bears witness to this connection:  'Mary's virginity and giving birth, and even the Lord's death escaped the notice of the prince of this world: these three mysteries worthy of proclamation were accomplished in God's silence.' [St. Ignatius of Antioch, Ad Eph. 19, 1: AF 11/2 76-80: cf. 1 Cor 2:8 .]"

499. "The deepening of faith in the virginal motherhood led the Church to confess Mary's real and perpetual virginity even in the act of giving birth to the Son of God made man. [Cf. DS 291; 294; 427; 442; 503; 571; 1880.] In fact, Christ's birth 'did not diminish his mother's virginal integrity but sanctified it.' [LG 57.] And so the liturgy of the Church celebrates Mary as Aeiparthenos, the 'Ever-virgin'. [Cf. LG 52.]"

500. "Against this doctrine the objection is sometimes raised that the Bible mentions brothers and sisters of Jesus. [Cf. Mk 3:31-35; Mk 6:3; 1 Cor 9:5; Gal 1:19.] The Church has always understood these passages as not referring to other children of the Virgin Mary. In fact James and Joseph, 'brothers of Jesus', are the sons of another Mary, a disciple of Christ, whom St. Matthew significantly calls 'the other Mary'. [Mt 13:55; Mt 28:1; cf. Mt 27:56 .] They are close relations of Jesus, according to an Old Testament expression. [Cf. Gen 13:8 ; Gen 14:16; Gen 29:15; etc.]"

501. "Jesus is Mary's only son, but her spiritual motherhood extends to all men whom indeed he came to save:  'The Son whom she brought forth is he whom God placed as the first-born among many brethren, that is, the faithful in whose generation and formation she co-operates with a mother's love.' [LG 63; cf. Jn 19:26-27; Rom 8:29; Rev 12:17.]"

502. "The eyes of faith can discover in the context of the whole of Revelation the mysterious reasons why God in his saving plan wanted his Son to be born of a virgin. These reasons touch both on the person of Christ and his redemptive mission, and on the welcome Mary gave that mission on behalf of all men."

503. "Mary's virginity manifests God's absolute initiative in the Incarnation.  Jesus has only God as Father. 'He was never estranged from the Father because of the human nature which he assumed. . . He is naturally Son of the Father as to his divinity and naturally son of his mother as to his humanity, but properly Son of the Father in both natures.' [Council of Friuli (796): DS 619; cf. Lk 2:48-49.]"

504. "Jesus is conceived by the Holy Spirit in the Virgin Mary's womb because he is the New Adam, who inaugurates the new creation: 'The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven.'[1 Cor 15:45,47.] From his conception, Christ's humanity is filled with the Holy Spirit, for God 'gives him the Spirit without measure.' [Jn 3:34 .] From 'his fullness' as the head of redeemed humanity 'we have all received, grace upon grace.' [Jn 1:16; cf. Col 1:18.]"

505. "By his virginal conception, Jesus, the New Adam, ushers in the new birth of children adopted in the Holy Spirit through faith. 'How can this be?' [Lk 1:34; cf. Jn 3:9.] Participation in the divine life arises 'not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God'. [Jn 1:13.] The acceptance of this life is virginal because it is entirely the Spirit's gift to man. The spousal character of the human vocation in relation to God [Cf. 2 Cor 11:2.] is fulfilled perfectly in Mary's virginal motherhood."

506. "Mary is a virgin because her virginity is the sign of her faith 'unadulterated by any doubt', and of her undivided gift of herself to God's will. [LG 63; cf. l Cor 7:34-35.] It is her faith that enables her to become the mother of the Saviour: 'Mary is more blessed because she embraces faith in Christ than because she conceives the flesh of Christ.' [St. Augustine, De virg. 3: PL 40, 398.]"

507. "At once virgin and mother, Mary is the symbol and the most perfect realization of the Church: 'the Church indeed. . . by receiving the word of God in faith becomes herself a mother. By preaching and Baptism she brings forth sons, who are conceived by the Holy Spirit and born of God, to a new and immortal life. She herself is a virgin, who keeps in its entirety and purity the faith she pledged to her spouse.' [LG 64; cf. 63.]"

4 posted on 02/02/2007 4:46:06 PM PST by NYer ("Where the bishop is present, there is the Catholic Church" - Ignatius of Antioch)
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To: NYer

"Come, let us wonder at the virgin most pure, wondrous in herself, unique in creation, she gave birth, yet knew no man; her pure soul with wonder was filled, daily her mind gave praise in joy at the twofold wonder: her virginity preserved, her child most dear. Blessed is He who shone forth from her!"
+Ephrem the Syrian, The Harp of the Spirit, early 4th century.

5 posted on 02/02/2007 5:28:37 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: NYer; redgolum; lightman; crazykatz; JosephW; lambo; MoJoWork_n; newberger; The_Reader_David; ...

Catholic/Orthodox Caucus Patristics ping

6 posted on 02/02/2007 5:29:49 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: NYer
Did Jesus have blood brothers?

One of the most common criticisms aimed at the perpetual virginity of Mary is the argument based on Luke 8 and John 7 that Jesus had brothers.

However in Mt 13:55 (cf. Mk 6:3) we see that the brothers referenced in Lk 8 and Jn 7 are "James and Joseph and Simon and Judas".

But, scripture tells us that at least two of them are actually Jesus' cousins!

1. Jn 19:25 says that "Mary, the wife of Clopas" is the Blessed Mother's sister.

2. "Mary, the wife of Clopas" is the "other mary" who went to the sepulcher with Mary Magdalene

3. This "other mary" is also the mother of James and Joseph (Mt 27:56,61; 28:1; Mk 15:47).

4. So, this would make James and Joseph the cousins of Jesus, even tho Mt 13:55 and Mk 6:3 say that they are Jesus' "brothers."

Since Simon and Judas are listed together with James and Joseph without any distinction made between them, it is likely that Simon and Judas had the same type of relation. Of course, if this Simon and Judas are the apostles Simon and Judas, then we know for a fact they were not Jesus' brothers.

All of this makes it highly unlikely that the "brothers" mentioned in Lk 8:19-21 and Jn 7:2-10 were Jesus' actual siblings. Instead, they were probably close relatives of some kind.

The perpetual virginity of Mary was one of the Catholic doctrines that I struggled with for the longest time. However, given the above, it becomes pretty clear. I think we do Mary injustice when we try and interpret her thoughts and expectations through a 20th century lens. After all, she lived in a much more devout time than we.
8 posted on 02/02/2007 6:38:59 PM PST by Old_Mil (
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To: NYer; OMalley; bradthebuilder; Mrs. Don-o; Knitting A Conundrum; do the dhue; Hydroshock; ...

Freep-mail me to get on or off my pro-life and Catholic Ping List:

Add me / Remove me

Please ping me to all note-worthy Pro-Life or Catholic threads, or other threads of interest.

Please take a moment and add your voice to mine as I say: Thank you NYer for your tireless efforts here. God Bless.

10 posted on 02/02/2007 7:22:40 PM PST by narses (St Thomas says "lex injusta non obligat.")
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