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Catholic Converts - Israel (Eugenio) Zolli - Chief Rabbi of Rome
LRC ^

Posted on 02/20/2007 6:40:02 PM PST by NYer

Israel (Eugenio) Zolli (1881-1956): Chief Rabbi of Rome an scholar of biblical and semitic literature; converted from Judaism in 1945, and out of respect for Pope Pius XII, took his first name, "Eugenio," as his own Christian name.


(This biography is from a monthly letter from Abbaye St. Joseph de Clairval, Flavigny, France, and is used with permission.  Their website, www.clairval.com,  contains many other inspirational biographies as well as information on the monastery,  how to receive their monthly letter, and the Ignation retreats which they offer.)


Israel, a young Jew, got along well at school with Stanislas, a young Christian. Invited to his friend's house, Israel saw a crucifix hanging on the wall. He had never seen one before. When he went home, he asked his family about this man hanging on a cross. They replied, 'This is something that concerns Christians, not us.' Much later, he read in the prophet Isaiah the songs of the servant of the Lord, in which is presented the purest and most innocent man, beaten, humiliated, and put to death for our sins. The nagging question then sprang to his mind: 'Isn't the crucified man I saw this servant of Yahweh?'
Young Israel Zoller was born on September 17, 1881, in Brody, in Galicia, now a region in southeast Poland, but at that time part of the Austro-Hungarian empire. He was the youngest of five children. Members of the Jewish faith, the family was relatively well-off, as the father was the owner of a silk factory in Lodz, then in Russian territory. In 1888, the Czar decided to nationalize every business owned by foreigners. Mr. Zoller's factory in Lodz was confiscated without financial compensation. The family's way of life was considerably reduced, and the eldest sons were forced to move away to look for work.
At the age of seven, Israel attended the Jewish primary school, where the children learned passages from the Bible by heart. But his taste for religious learning came primarily from his father. For her part, his mother taught him to help the needy. Moved by her neighbor's poverty, she redoubled her good works, appealing when necessary to the other ladies in her neighborhood, Jewish or Catholic. In the Brody area, there was no scorn or mistrust between Jews and Christians. A bond, in fact, 'spiritually ties the people of the New Covenant to Abraham's stock. Thus the Church of Christ acknowledges that, according to God's saving design, the beginnings of her faith and her election are found already among the Patriarchs, Moses and the prophets. She professes that all who believe in Christ—Abraham's sons according to faith—are included in the same Patriarch's call, and likewise that the salvation of the Church is mysteriously foreshadowed by the chosen people's exodus from the land of bondage. The Church, therefore, cannot forget that she received the revelation of the Old Testament through the people with whom God in His inexpressible mercy concluded the Ancient Covenant' (Vatican II, Nostra Aetate, 4).

In 1904, Israel left his family, whom he would never see again. His mother, who had always wished to see him become a rabbi, had just died. While giving lessons to provide for his family's needs, he studied philosophy at the University of Vienna, then at the University of Florence, where he completed his doctorate. At the same time, he pursued rabbinical studies. Named vice-rabbi of Trieste in 1913, which at that time was an Austrian port, he married Adele Litwak, a Galician Jew, from which union a daughter, Dora, was born. During the first World War, Israel was hounded by the Austrian police as an Italian partisan, because he had studied in that country. At the end of the conflict, Trieste was united with Italy, and Israel Zoller was named Chief Rabbi of the city.

Wasn't Jesus a Son of my people?

In 1917, he suffered the profound pain of losing his wife. At the time, he had a mystical experience—one afternoon, 'all of a sudden and without knowing why, as if I were in an ecstasy, I called upon the name of Jesus... I saw Him as in a large painting... I gazed at Him for a long time, without restlessness, feeling, rather, perfect serenity of mind... I said to myself, ‘Wasn't Jesus a Son of my people?' ' Nothing premeditated, nothing prepared. It was a first quiet call from Christ.

Zoller married again in 1920, to Emma Majonica, who would give him a second daughter, Miriam. From 1918 to 1938, living all the while in Trieste, he taught Hebrew and ancient Semitic languages at the University of Padua. Surprisingly, he studied the New Testament as well as the Old Testament. In this way he became familiar with the person of Jesus Christ and His teaching. He could not keep himself from comparing the Old Testament to the New: 'In the Old Testament, Justice is carried out by one man towards another... We do good for good received; we do harm for harm we have suffered at the hands of another. Not to do injury for injury is, in a certain fashion, to fall short of justice.' What a contrast with the Gospel: Love your enemies... pray for them, or even Jesus' last words on the cross: Father, forgive them, for they know not what they are doing! 'All this stupefied me,' Zoller wrote. 'The New Testament is, in fact, an altogether new Testament.' And he clarified, 'Here a new earth, a new heaven begin... The rich who are attached to the earth are poor, and the poor who have been able to detach themselves from the earth are truly rich, because they possess a kingdom that belongs to the afflicted, to the silent, and to the persecuted, who have themselves never persecuted, but have only loved.' Little by little, Zoller discovered the bond that links the two Testaments. Indeed, 'God, the inspirer and author of both Testaments, wisely arranged that the New Testament be hidden in the Old and the Old be made manifest in the New. ... [T]he books of the Old Testament ... acquire and show forth their full meaning in the New Testament' (Vatican II, Dei Verbum, 16).

The Nazarene

In addition, Zoller noted with sadness that, among his co-religionists, 'love of the Law is often more important than the law of Love.' The petty details of rabbinical casuistry eclipsed the great commandment of the law revealed by God to Moses: You shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, and with all your soul... (Dt. 6:5). As a specialist in ancient languages, he discovered that the name 'Nazarene' first of all referred to the little town where Jesus lived during His first thirty years. But the name also meant that Jesus of Nazareth was the Nazir (the Consecrated One) announced by the prophet Isaiah: A shoot shall sprout from the stump of Jesse, and from his roots a bud (in Hebrew: nazer) shall blossom. The spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him (Is. 11:1-2a). He expounded on this discovery in his most significant work of the twenty years he spent in Trieste, The Nazarene (1938).

The striking agreement between the story of Christ's Passion in the Gospel and the Suffering Servant described by the prophet Isaiah eight centuries before His coming left Zoller convinced that this prophesy was fulfilled in Jesus: He was spurned and avoided by men, a man of suffering, accustomed to infirmity... we held him in no esteem. Yet it was our infirmities that he bore, our sufferings that he endured... He was pierced for our offenses, crushed for our sins...; by his stripes we were healed (Isaiah 53, 3-5). In addition, examining Jesus' declarations on His divinity led him to write, 'Christ is the Messiah; the Messiah is God; therefore Christ is God.' Zoller was intellectually convinced, but he did not yet have faith. Faith was a grace that he would receive seven years later.

The rapprochement between Mussolini and Hitler's Germany at the end of the 1930s brought with it anti-Semitic campaigns in Italy, particularly in areas close to borders with the Third Reich. In Trieste, where there were many Jews, a Catholic historian organized a series of anti-Semitic conferences. A large audience was expected. Zoller decided to intercede with a Jesuit, a friend of the speaker's. The religious arranged a meeting between the rabbi and the orator. With gentleness and kindness, Zoller exhorted his listener, in the name of Christian principles and especially in the name of the forgiveness that Jesus Christ granted on the Cross, to cancel his conferences. The professor raised the difficulty of his situation as an objection—everything had already been organized. The rabbi shrugged his shoulders and advised him only to read the Gospel, as he often did himself. He predicted, 'The time is near when we will become good friends.' The following Sunday, in front of a packed auditorium, the lecturer announced that a high-ranking Jew had enlightened his conscience. He no longer wanted to continue on the path he had strayed down until then, and canceled the scheduled conferences.

But already discriminatory laws had been enacted against the Jews. Israel Zoller Italianized his name to 'Zolli.' Nevertheless, he was soon stripped of his Italian nationality, but he was not particularly worried. In 1940, the Jewish community in Rome offered him the post of Chief Rabbi. He accepted the position, with the goal of protecting his brothers in the persecution that was anticipated, and of making peace among the divisions within the Jewish community, whose members he exhorted to set politics aside and turn their attention to prayer, teaching, and mutual aid. But this appeal met with almost no response.

A solidarity that saves

In September 1943, after the fall of Mussolini and the armistice signed by the king of Italy, Victor Emmanuel III, with the Americans, Hitler sent thirty German divisions to occupy northern and central Italy. Himmler, commander of the SS, determined that the time had come to apply the policy of extermination of the Jewish race in Italy. He ordered the head of the SS in Rome, Lieutenant Colonel Kappler, to gather all the Jews together, men and women, children and the elderly, for deportation to Germany. Lieutenant Colonel Kappler took advantage of the deportation order that he had received for extortion. He summoned the two men presiding over the Jewish community in Rome, and demanded they deliver 50 kilos of gold to him in twenty-four hours, or else all the men in the Jewish population in the city would be deported immediately. In fact, it was a matter of a list of three hundred hostages, at the top of which Zolli appeared. The next day, the Jewish community had been able to collect only 35 kilos of gold. They asked the Chief Rabbi to go to the Vatican to try to borrow what was missing. He succeeded in entering the Vatican, all the exits of which were monitored by the Gestapo, by a hidden door in the back of the City, and explained his request for a loan of 15 kilos of gold to Pius XII's Secretary of State, Cardinal Maglione. He gave his own person as a security. The prelate consulted with the Holy Father, then asked Zolli to return before one o'clock in the afternoon. But shortly thereafter, Zolli learned that the quantity of gold required had already been collected, thanks to contributions from priests and numerous Catholic organizations.

However, this was only a respite. The Chief Rabbi made every effort to convince the Jews of Rome to disperse to avoid deportation. Soon the German ambassador to the Holy See, von Weizsäcker, who was secretly hostile to Nazi policy, warned the Pope that Himmler had ordered the deportation of all Jews in Italy. Pius XII immediately ordered the Roman clergy to open their sanctuaries so as to receive the Jews who would come to hide there. Zolli, who had a price on his head, lived in hiding for the next nine months and, finally, with Christian friends of his daughter, Dora. He thus succeeded in escaping from the Gestapo. But despite the precautions taken, in the night of October 15-16, a thousand Roman Jews (out of about 8000) were arrested and deported. Most would not return.

'From now on you will follow Me'

On June 4, 1944, the city of Rome was liberated by the American forces. By government decree of September 21, 1944, Israel Zolli, who had been relieved of his duties seven months earlier by leaders of the Jewish community, became Chief Rabbi of Rome again. During the feast of Yom Kippur (the Day of Atonement) in October 1944, he presided over the prayers of Great Pardon in the synagogue in Rome. 'Suddenly,' he wrote, 'I saw, with the eyes of the mind, a large prairie, and standing in the middle of the green grass was Jesus, dressed in a white robe... At the sight of this, I felt a great interior peace, and, from the depths of my heart, I heard these words: 'You are here for the last time. From now on, you will follow Me.' I received them in the greatest serenity, and my heart immediately responded, 'As it shall be, so it must be.'... An hour later, after supper, in my room, my wife declared to me, 'Today, while you were standing before the Ark of the Torah, it seemed to me that the white figure of Jesus was laying His hands on you, as if He were blessing you.' I was stupefied... At that very moment, our younger daughter, Miriam, who had gone to her room and hadn't heard anything, called for me to tell me, 'You are in the middle of talking about Jesus Christ. You know, Papa, this evening I saw a big Jesus, all white, in a dream.' I wished them both a good night and, without feeling at all ill at ease, I continued to think about the extraordinary sequence of events.'

A few days later, the Chief Rabbi relinquished his duties, and went to find a priest in order to complete his instruction in the truths of the faith. On February 13, 1945, Archbishop Traglia conferred the sacrament of Baptism on Israel Zolli, who chose 'Eugenio' as his Christian name, in gratitude to Pope Pius XII for his decisive action on behalf of the Jews during the war. Zolli's wife, Emma, received Baptism with her husband, and added the name 'Maria' to her first name. Their daughter Miriam would follow her parents after a year of personal reflection. Eugenio Zolli's baptism was the result of a long spiritual evolution: 'This event in my soul was like the arrival of a beloved guest. I began only to hear the voice of Christ expressed most clearly and most strongly in the Gospels. In my soul, God did not reveal Himself at all by means of tempest or fire, but through a gentle murmur... I became aware of a God Whom I loved, a God Who wants to be loved, and who Himself loves... The convert, like the man miraculously cured, is the object (the one who receives) and not the subject (the perpetrator) of the miracle. It is false to speak of someone who has converted as if he has acted from personal initiative. No one says of the miraculously cured that he has cured himself, but that he has been cured. We must say the same of the convert.'

All men and women are His children

Zolli was often asked if he had converted out of gratitude towards Pope Pius XII. He always answered in the negative, adding, however: 'You could say of the reign of Pius XII that it was inspired by the words of the prophet Isaiah: 'Peace is harmony, peace is salvation for those who are near as for those who are far, I wish to heal all' (cf. Is. 57:19). The Catholic Church loves all souls. She suffers with all and for all. She waits with love for all her children on Peter's holy threshold, and her children are all mankind... There is no place of suffering that Pius XII's spirit of love did not reach... In the course of history, no hero commanded such an army. No military force was more fighting, none was more fought against, none was more heroic than that led by Pius XII in the name of Christian charity.' According to the Jewish historian Pinchas Lapide, the Catholic Church, through its charitable action, was able to save from certain death approximately 850,000 Jews living in areas occupied by the Third Reich (Cf. Pius XII and the Second World War, by Father Pierre Blet S.J., Paulist Press, 1999).

The night of his Baptism, Zolli did not even have enough to eat dinner. Archbishop Traglia gave him 50 lira. At the age of sixty-five, Zolli found himself suddenly confronted with grave financial problems, starting with that of supporting his family. Up until that time, he had always lived from his fees as a Rabbi and a professor. He accepted this new situation with the greatest detachment: 'I am asking for the water of Baptism and nothing else. I am poor and I will live poor. I have trust in Providence.' The news of the Chief Rabbi of Rome being baptized launched a chorus of slanders. He was accused, among other calumnies, of having apostatized out of self-interest. It was easy for him to answer: 'The Jews who convert today, as in Saint Paul's time, have everything to lose in terms of material life, and have everything to gain in the life of grace.' He responded to the reproach of treason with indignation: 'The God of Jesus Christ, of Paul, is He not the same God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?'

In our time, certain Catholics think it is pointless for a Jew to convert to become Christian. This opinion is contradicted by the teaching of the Second Vatican Council: 'Christ, present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation. In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism (cf. Mk 16:16) and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church. Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved' (Vatican II, Lumen Gentium, 14).

At three o'clock in the afternoon, just like Jesus


Through the Holy Father's intervention, Eugenio Zolli was named a professor at the Pontifical Biblical Institute. In October 1946, he entered the Third Order of Saint Francis, the distinguishing feature of which is evangelical poverty practiced by lay people in the world. Zolli, a faithful parishioner at Stella Matutina, discreetly attended talks on the Gospel given by his parish priest. During Christmas 1955, he himself gave a conference on the announcement of the Redeemer in the Old Testament. But in January 1956, he came down with pneumonia. His wife Emma was also sick and elderly. Their younger daughter, Miriam, who was married and had given birth to a little girl, Maura Brigida, stayed at her father's bedside in this final illness. A week before his death, Eugenio confided to a nun who was caring for him, 'I will die the first Friday of the month, at three o'clock in the afternoon, just like Our Lord.' On Friday, March 2, in the morning, he received Holy Communion. Having fallen into a coma at noon, at three o'clock in the afternoon Eugenio Zolli committed his soul to God. He had written at the end of his memoirs: 'We can trust in nothing save the mercy of God, save the compassion of Christ, Whom humanity put to death because it did not know how to live in Him. We can rely on nothing but the intercession of Her whose Heart was pierced through by the lance that pierced Her Son's side.'

Through his spiritual journey, Eugenio Zolli shows the continuity between the old Covenant and the New:

"'Do not think that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets. I have come, not to abolish them, but to fulfill them' Jesus had said (Mt. 5:17). God has visited his people. He has fulfilled the promise he made to Abraham and his descendents. He acted far beyond all expectation -- He has sent His own 'beloved Son.' ... 'In many and various ways God spoke of old to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son' (Heb. 1:1-2). Christ, the Son of God made man, is the Father's one, perfect, and unsurpassable Word. In Him He has said everything; there will be no other word than this one... 'In giving us His Son, His only Word,' wrote Saint John of the Cross, 'He has no more to say... Any person questioning God or desiring some vision or revelation would be guilty not only of foolish behavior but also of offending Him, by not fixing his eyes entirely upon Christ and by living with the desire for some other novelty' ' (Catechism of the Catholic Church, nos. 422 and 65).

For Zolli, the demands that this truth brought with it were not easy to implement. At the end of his life, he said, 'Those of you who are born into the Catholic faith do not realize the opportunity you have, to have received the grace of Christ since your childhood. But those who, like me, have come to the threshold of faith after long work continued over the course of many years, appreciate the grandeur of the gift of Faith and feel all the joy there is to be Christian.'

Let us thank God for the gift of Faith that He has granted us undeservedly. Let us preserve this treasure through a holy life, and let us pray that all men and women might know the Messiah, believe in Him, and obtain eternal Life.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Judaism; Prayer
KEYWORDS: conversion; jew; rabbi
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Israel Zolli

Chief Rabbi of Rome

1 posted on 02/20/2007 6:40:10 PM PST by NYer
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To: Lady In Blue; Salvation; narses; SMEDLEYBUTLER; redhead; Notwithstanding; nickcarraway; Romulus; ...

Lent is the season for conversion of hearts.


2 posted on 02/20/2007 6:42:11 PM PST by NYer ("Where the bishop is present, there is the Catholic Church" - Ignatius of Antioch)
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To: 2ndMostConservativeBrdMember; afraidfortherepublic; Alas; al_c; american colleen; annalex; ...


3 posted on 02/20/2007 6:43:02 PM PST by Coleus (Roe v. Wade and Endangered Species Act both passed in 1973, Murder Babies/save trees, birds, insects)
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To: Lady In Blue; Salvation; narses; SMEDLEYBUTLER; redhead; Notwithstanding; nickcarraway; Romulus; ...

Lent is the season for conversion of hearts.


4 posted on 02/20/2007 6:43:27 PM PST by NYer ("Where the bishop is present, there is the Catholic Church" - Ignatius of Antioch)
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To: NYer
As a convert, these words mean much to me:

'Those of you who are born into the Catholic faith do not realize the opportunity you have, to have received the grace of Christ since your childhood. But those who, like me, have come to the threshold of faith after long work continued over the course of many years, appreciate the grandeur of the gift of Faith and feel all the joy there is to be Christian.'

5 posted on 02/20/2007 6:46:31 PM PST by Miss Marple (Prayers for Jemian's son,: Lord, please keep him safe and bring him home .)
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To: NYer

**At the end of his life, he said, 'Those of you who are born into the Catholic faith do not realize the opportunity you have, to have received the grace of Christ since your childhood. But those who, like me, have come to the threshold of faith after long work continued over the course of many years, appreciate the grandeur of the gift of Faith and feel all the joy there is to be Christian.'**

Wow!


6 posted on 02/20/2007 6:49:55 PM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: NYer

NYer,

Labeling this a caucus thread is the absolute hight of arrogance!


7 posted on 02/20/2007 6:50:22 PM PST by Enosh (†)
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To: Miss Marple

As a cradle Catholic, that quote is very true. I didn't appreciate what my parents had given me almost 34 years ago until my husband converted almost 9 years ago, 2 months before the birth of our first child. Watching him come to the realization of all that the Catholic Church stood for awakened something in me that had never been there before. Now I take great joy in being Catholic...it is who I am first and foremost...before being a wife, even before being a mother.


8 posted on 02/20/2007 6:51:58 PM PST by Hoosier Catholic Momma (We interrupt this tagline to announce that another little FReeper (#4) is due 10/8/07!)
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To: All
Those of you who are born into the Catholic faith do not realize the opportunity you have, to have received the grace of Christ since your childhood. But those who, like me, have come to the threshold of faith after long work continued over the course of many years, appreciate the grandeur of the gift of Faith and feel all the joy there is to be Christian.'

Bears repeating!!!!

9 posted on 02/20/2007 6:54:17 PM PST by NYer ("Where the bishop is present, there is the Catholic Church" - Ignatius of Antioch)
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To: NYer

Do you think our Jewish members may have something to say about all of this?


10 posted on 02/20/2007 6:56:41 PM PST by Enosh (†)
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To: NYer

Wow!! What a beautiful story! Thanks for posting, NYer.

Israel Zolli pray for us.


11 posted on 02/20/2007 7:02:37 PM PST by Nihil Obstat (As it shall be, so it must be.)
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To: Miss Marple
'Those of you who are born into the Catholic faith do not realize the opportunity you have, to have received the grace of Christ since your childhood. But those who, like me, have come to the threshold of faith after long work continued over the course of many years, appreciate the grandeur of the gift of Faith and feel all the joy there is to be Christian.'

There is so much we take for granted in life. This can be even more manifest, when it comes to questions of faith. As a cradle catholic who 'took it all for granted' and then, as a devotee of Marcus Grodi's program The Journey Home, I have come to appreciate the tremendous gift bestowed upon me at the ripe age of 13 days. My personal journey has been a serpentine one - in and out of the faith. Now, in my 'wisdom' years, the full appreciation of this gift has blossomed.

Thank you to ALL who have posted your comments to this and the other 'Catholic Converts' threads. May these serve to inspire and lift your spirits, as we traverse the desert with our Lord, over the next 40 days.

A Blessed Lent to you all!

12 posted on 02/20/2007 7:14:38 PM PST by NYer ("Where the bishop is present, there is the Catholic Church" - Ignatius of Antioch)
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To: NYer

This is a story that needs to be shouted far and wide.


13 posted on 02/20/2007 7:19:39 PM PST by mockingbyrd (peace begins in the womb)
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To: NYer

Note that this is a story of a convert from Judaism to Christianity which specifically references Matthew 5:17 and Hebrews 1:1-2.

Recall that Jews do not regard the New Testament as Scripture.

In this light, your hiding behind the "caucus" skirt seems excessively abusive.


14 posted on 02/20/2007 7:24:00 PM PST by Enosh (†)
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To: Enosh

I have simply posted the story written by the Chief Rabbi of Rome ... nothing more. It is not my story, but his; I am nothing more than the messenger.


15 posted on 02/20/2007 7:33:41 PM PST by NYer ("Where the bishop is present, there is the Catholic Church" - Ignatius of Antioch)
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To: NYer

Having been rebuffed on a caucus thread before … can I ask (in the interest of general knowledge) what does “caucus” mean. I thought that all forums within FreeReplublic were open to discussion. Seems that if this is “FreeRepublic” that all forums would be “free” and open to discussion.

If I want to restrict discussion, all I have to do is introduce it as a “caucus” and open discussion is forbidden? Doesn’t seem like “Free” to me?

Please, someone, educate me …. With logic, please.

The only reason I ask is that I find so much to debate on the “caucus” threads that it drives me crazy that I am not able (site rules) to render my opinion.


16 posted on 02/20/2007 7:38:15 PM PST by doc1019 (If Obama is elected as President, we will become an “Obama Nation”.)
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To: NYer
nothing more

The link you provided does not contain the words, "Catholic Caucus."

17 posted on 02/20/2007 7:40:13 PM PST by Enosh (†)
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To: doc1019

The RM posted guidelines not too long ago about it.

IMHO, NYer is the #1 abuser, Alex is second and I may be distainfully thought of as the third, if that.


18 posted on 02/20/2007 7:48:22 PM PST by Enosh (†)
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To: Alex Murphy

Ping...

Missed when mentioning you on my last post...


19 posted on 02/20/2007 7:54:16 PM PST by Enosh (†)
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To: NYer

My husband is converting this year. I can't wait to take communion with him for the first time.


20 posted on 02/20/2007 7:57:46 PM PST by samiam1972 (http://imrunningforpresident.blogspot.com/)
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Comment #21 Removed by Moderator

To: Enosh

Does not answer my basic question. So I can discuss anything and restrict discussion by attaching the word Caucus to the thread?

After all this site is called “FeeRepublic”, so why am I restricted on certain threads?


22 posted on 02/20/2007 8:00:41 PM PST by doc1019 (If Obama is elected as President, we will become an “Obama Nation”.)
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To: doc1019; Enosh
For information on Caucus threads, please read the Religion Forum Guidelines

Generally speaking, threads on the Religion Forum may be "open" or "closed."

Open threads are like a town square, posters may be anti-[pick a confession] or pro-[pick a confession] as long as they abide by the guidelines.

Closed threads include devotionals, prayer threads and threads designated as a "caucus." They are treated as if the discussion were a church meeting behind closed doors. The assembly is not to be disturbed.

Any thread can be designated a caucus provided it is not anti-another confession - or in either the article or replies raises any issue which another confession might need to rebut.

23 posted on 02/20/2007 8:03:07 PM PST by Religion Moderator
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To: NYer

Thanks for posting this NYer.


24 posted on 02/20/2007 8:04:25 PM PST by diamond6 (Everyone who is for abortion has been born. Ronald Reagan)
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To: samiam1972
My husband is converting this year. I can't wait to take communion with him for the first time.

Welcome home! to your husband! Please share the experience with all of us, okay? God bless you both!

25 posted on 02/20/2007 8:12:21 PM PST by NYer ("Where the bishop is present, there is the Catholic Church" - Ignatius of Antioch)
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To: doc1019

The "Caucus" part means that we are in the other guy's church.

(Please also note that this is the Religion forum, not the News/Chat/Etc.)

Almost everywhere else, you are quite free to express your opinion.

But not in the other guy's church.

Therein is the current problem...

NYer thumped her chest (again) and declared Jews to be wrong.

That's not a snipe. That's artillery.


26 posted on 02/20/2007 8:13:22 PM PST by Enosh (†)
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To: Religion Moderator

So, I could (as an example) open a Baptist tread (and call it a caucus) and say anything I want to and exclude anyone that dosn’s agree?


27 posted on 02/20/2007 8:13:45 PM PST by doc1019 (If Obama is elected as President, we will become an “Obama Nation”.)
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To: Enosh

Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.


28 posted on 02/20/2007 8:17:31 PM PST by Religion Moderator
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To: doc1019

Yes, providing you do not say anything anti-another confession or raise any point another confession might want or need to rebut. Also, the article and replies must comply with the Religion Forum Guidelines.


29 posted on 02/20/2007 8:20:02 PM PST by Religion Moderator
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To: Religion Moderator

So, open debate is restricted?


30 posted on 02/20/2007 8:25:21 PM PST by doc1019 (If Obama is elected as President, we will become an “Obama Nation”.)
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To: doc1019; Enosh
So, I could (as an example) open a Baptist tread (and call it a caucus) and say anything I want to and exclude anyone that dosn’s agree?

Not quite.

For example, you could open a "Baptist caucus" thread that discusses Baptist doctrine, and limit the discussion to just Baptists (or at least those friendly to Baptists). By giving it a "Caucus" label, the Religion Moderator will support you and aide in keeping the conversation on-topic and Baptist-friendly.

What you can't do is open a "Baptist caucus" thread that discusses Catholic doctrine, and expect the Religion Moderator to keep Catholics out of the discussion. I'm using the labels purely for example - any group's "caucus" thread that is critical of another group will lose it's caucus status, and become a regular thread open to all parties for discussion and non-abusive debate.

In short, if you're going to talk about the other guy, it's not a "Caucus" thread, and you have to give him the opportunity for rebuttal.

31 posted on 02/20/2007 8:26:38 PM PST by Alex Murphy
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To: doc1019
Read this: Religion Forum Guidelines
32 posted on 02/20/2007 8:27:31 PM PST by Religion Moderator
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To: Religion Moderator; NYer
but do not make it personal.

You misunderstand.

NYer is my sister who has made a mistake.

My Jewish cousins crowd at the gate wanting to voice their opinions on this article.

33 posted on 02/20/2007 8:37:30 PM PST by Enosh (†)
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To: Religion Moderator

Not wishing to lose my access to “Free” Republic, I will forgo any further argument. I feel that your logic is delusional at best, but you are in charge. Always thought that free and open discussion was just that “open and free discussion” guess I was wrong.


34 posted on 02/20/2007 8:38:42 PM PST by doc1019 (If Obama is elected as President, we will become an “Obama Nation”.)
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To: Enosh; NYer

Hmmm ... the article does indeed raise points about Jewish belief that some here may wish to rebut. I will remove the caucus label.


35 posted on 02/20/2007 8:44:14 PM PST by Religion Moderator
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To: Enosh

It's bad form not to ping the person you are attacking.

No she didn't. This is just ANOTHER in a series of CONVERSION TO THE CATHOLIC CHURCH stories. If he had been an atheist would you still be posting these comments?


36 posted on 02/20/2007 8:57:15 PM PST by Jaded ("I have a mustard- seed; and I am not afraid to use it."- Joseph Ratzinger)
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To: Alex Murphy

do you think the keywords apply?


37 posted on 02/20/2007 8:58:51 PM PST by Jaded ("I have a mustard- seed; and I am not afraid to use it."- Joseph Ratzinger)
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To: NYer

Nice subtle hit piece on Jews. Your arrogance knows no bounds.


38 posted on 02/20/2007 9:01:24 PM PST by Invincibly Ignorant
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To: Invincibly Ignorant

Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.


39 posted on 02/20/2007 9:02:40 PM PST by Religion Moderator
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To: Jaded; NYer
do you think the keywords apply?

Call me thickheaded, but I only learned of the presence and use of keywords earlier today, so I'm new to the whole subject. Why is it being raised now, why on this thread, and why with me? Shouldn't your question be directed to NYer?

40 posted on 02/20/2007 9:08:06 PM PST by Alex Murphy
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To: Religion Moderator

I don't envy your job, here.


41 posted on 02/20/2007 9:29:14 PM PST by reagandemocrat
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To: Invincibly Ignorant

Hit piece on Jews? Your ignorance knows no bounds.


42 posted on 02/20/2007 10:41:05 PM PST by warsaw44
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To: warsaw44

Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.


43 posted on 02/20/2007 10:53:47 PM PST by Religion Moderator
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To: Invincibly Ignorant; Alex Murphy; Enosh; doc1019; NYer; Religion Moderator

So I notice that the Caucus label was removed from this thread.

So what were your issues with this gentleman's bio?

(Remember, in the words of our esteemed babysitter, "Discuss all you want, but don't make it personal")


44 posted on 02/21/2007 2:58:22 AM PST by markomalley (Extra ecclesiam nulla salus)
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To: Jaded
Okay, this is one in a series of conversion stories. Are they all posted as a caucus or are they distributed to a wider audience?

If he had been an atheist would you still be posting these comments?

Yes.

Imagine this headline: "Pope Renounces Faith, Embraces Atheism (Atheism Caucus)"

Think you might have something to say about that?

45 posted on 02/21/2007 5:24:50 AM PST by Enosh (†)
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To: markomalley

I think Rabbi Zolli's story is heartwarming, but that's just me.


46 posted on 02/21/2007 5:36:27 AM PST by Enosh (†)
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To: Enosh
I think Rabbi Zolli's story is heartwarming, but that's just me.

I would imagine it's not so heartwarming to Jews :(

47 posted on 02/21/2007 5:53:54 AM PST by Alex Murphy
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To: NYer

What a beautiful story. I was thinking about it all night so I had to read it again this morning. Thanks for posting.


48 posted on 02/21/2007 6:02:47 AM PST by Nihil Obstat
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To: Alex Murphy

Nope.


49 posted on 02/21/2007 6:02:56 AM PST by Enosh (†)
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To: Nihil Obstat
What a beautiful story. I was thinking about it all night so I had to read it again this morning. Thanks for posting

It is a truly remarkable story ... and there are more to come :-). I believe you will enjoy this one, as well. Lenten blessings to you.

50 posted on 02/21/2007 6:06:49 AM PST by NYer ("Where the bishop is present, there is the Catholic Church" - Ignatius of Antioch)
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