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To: dangus; Diego1618
Well atleast Melito's views didn't cost him his halo. And weren't a lot of his views commonly held by the church in his area in his day.

And the canon that he listed was within the mainstream of ante-Nicene church tradition. The chart below illustrates this. It did not copy well but comes from a website "bible-researcher.com/canon04".

The chart demonstrates that acceptance of an OT canon with Deuts did not begin until Augustine and the Council of Carthage circa 397 AD.

Disputed Books of the Old Testament

The table below shows which of the disputed Old Testament books are included in Christian catalogs of canonical books up to the eighth century. Y indicates that the book is plainly listed as Holy Scripture; N indicates that it is placed in an inferior class of books; M indicates that the terminology of the author may be construed as a reference to the book as Holy Scripture. An S indicates that the author does not mention the book in his catalog, which implies its rejection. See notes on the authorities below.

KEY Esth. - Esther Bar. - Baruch Eccl. - Ecclesiasticus Wisd. - Wisdom of Solomon Tob. - Tobit Jud. - Judith Mac. - First and Second Maccabees

1. Greek Authors. Date Esth. Bar. Eccl. Wisd. Tob. Jud. Mac. Melito 160 S S S S S S S Origen 225 Y M S S S S N Cyril of Jerusalem 348 Y Y N N N N N Council of Laodicea 363 Y Y S S S S S Athanasius 367 N Y N N N N S Gregory of Nazianzus 380 S S S S S S S Amphilocius of Iconium 380 M S S S S S S Epiphanius 385 Y S N N S S S Stichometry of Niceph. 550 N Y N N N N N Synopsis of Sac. Scrip. 550 N S N N N N S Leontius 590 S S S S S S S List of the Sixty Books 650 N S N N N N N John of Damascus 730 Y S N N S S S

2. Syrian Greek. Date Esth. Bar. Eccl. Wisd. Tob. Jud. Mac. "Apostolic Canons" 380 Y S N S S M Y

3. Latin Authors.* Date Esth. Bar. Eccl. Wisd. Tob. Jud. Mac. Hilary of Poitiers 360 Y M S S M M S Cheltenham List 360 Y M S M Y Y Y Rufinus 380 Y M N N N N N Jerome 390 Y M N N N N N Augustine 397 Y M Y Y Y Y Y 3rd Council of Carthage 397 Y M Y Y Y Y Y Codex Claromontanus 400 Y M Y Y Y Y Y Letter of Innocent I 405 Y M Y Y Y Y Y Decree of Gelasius 550 Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Cassiodorus 560 Y M Y Y Y Y Y Isidore of Seville 625 Y M Y Y Y Y Y

27 posted on 03/01/2007 4:41:02 AM PST by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
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To: Uncle Chip

First, I won't allow you to cloud the issue by getting bogged down in side issues. I repeat: No author rejected the Septuagint. Several authors distinguished them as not being in the Hebrew canon, and thus unavailable for comparative translation (Origen, Jerome, etc.). Others noted that they were useless in apologetics to the Jews, since the Jews did not recognize their authenticity. And no author accepts, for instance, Esther but not Baruch.

Here's how good your chart is:
(1) it repeats the insipid canard that Jerome rejected the Septuagint's books, despite Jerome's explanation that he was representing the opinion of the Jews, and assertion that anyone who would believe he would reject them is a "fool and a slanderer." If anything, Jerome demonstrates that acceptance of the disputed books was de rigeur; even if Jerome failed to see the wisdom of the Catholic canon, he felt obliged to acknowledge the findings. (Notions he did so grudgingly are unfounded but irrelevant.)
(2) it lists Rufinus as opposing the disputed book's canonicity. It was Rufinus who accused Jerome of heresy for not having accepted them.
(3) it suggests Origen's omission of the books implies rejection; Origen (like Jerome) was preparing a translation including Hebrew, for which the disputed books were not available.
(4) the council of Laodicea's canon is commonly considered a fake; the Galatian council lists 59 rulings, making no mention of the 60th where this canon lies; In fact, a list of specifically rejected books does exist, including several apocryphal books, and it does not include any of the debated books, despite warnings that all non-canonical books must be prohibited from services. Thus, the council implicitly recognized the disputed books or (improbably) failed to recognize their significant existence.

The only author in your list which holds up is Nazanius, who was (for some reason) deposed as bishop, before being re-affirmed at the Council of Carthage, which felt the odd urge to clarify the books of the bible when it did so.

>> The chart demonstrates that acceptance of an OT canon with Deuts did not begin until Augustine and the Council of Carthage circa 397 AD. <<

It is far from exhaustive, highly inaccurate, and fails to list any author who simply refers to the Septuagint. The list of authors who cite as scripture books among the disputed list is quite vast, but these do not need to enumerate which books they accept, since they equate scripture simply with the Septuagint.


28 posted on 03/01/2007 6:13:07 AM PST by dangus
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To: Uncle Chip; dangus
The table below shows which of the disputed Old Testament books are included in Christian catalogs of canonical books up to the eighth century. Y indicates that the book is plainly listed as Holy Scripture; N indicates that it is placed in an inferior class of books; M indicates that the terminology of the author may be construed as a reference to the book as Holy Scripture. An S indicates that the author does not mention the book in his catalog, which implies its rejection. See notes on the authorities below.

Inclusion of this table again makes it quite obvious that you could care less about the truth, but merely trying to make a point, even if it involves ignoring the points I have already pointed out to you two weeks ago. I gave you a detailed refutation of this site on Origen's view of Scriptures with QUOTES!

That is why it is pointless to argue with someone like you on this matter. You don't really care about the "truth", only with "proving" Catholics wrong. Thus, you go elsewhere and stir the pot hoping that no one will notice your pet site's errors. Thus, Scripture tells us about such men...

"A man that is a heretic, after the first and second admonition, avoid: Knowing that he, that is such an one, is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned by his own judgment." Titus 3:10,11

30 posted on 03/01/2007 4:51:03 PM PST by jo kus (Humility is present when one debases oneself without being obliged to do so- St.Chrysostom; Phil 2:8)
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