Posted on 04/21/2007 6:18:02 AM PDT by DouglasKC
I might take a gander at some of those other threads, although I doubt I will find something I haven’t seen before. I have looked at this issue very seriously, and prayed very seriously about it, and I don’t see Sabbath keeping as a requirement, nor do I see Sabbath breaking as a sin.
Like I posted to dangus, I don’t have a problem if you wish to worship on Saturday. I know in my heart of hearts that people can worship God on any day of the week. The most important part of worship is what Jesus told the woman at the well...worship him in spirit and in truth.
I just got done with a little FReepmail discussion with kerryusama04 (or Chris). It’s too bad it wasn’t on an open forum, alot was discussed, but alas, no one was probably moved from their position.
I work with a Evangelical Sabbatarian and an SDAer (who has given me lots of information to read). While we disagree on some topics, I believe they are both saved and we will all will enjoy heaven togather.
I really need to learn to tread lightly on these forums. While I find out alot of good information and confirmation of what I believe and why, I also feel that these things turn into an attempt at a verbal smackdown and self gratification on debating skills. I really don’t think that’s what the Bible means when its says “let’s reason togather.”
Sincerely
Scubie
The Ten Commandments are a clear enunciation of the righteousness demanded by our Creator. As such they have always existed, and they will always be a source of accusation not only from God toward humankind, but also between humans.
My question is: What is the difference between an accusation that comes through the Ten Commandments and an accusation that comes through Satan?
It was only Peter (inspired by Christ, of course) who established the doctrine that Gentiles didn’t need to be circumscribed. Paul was only pointing out that Peter hadn’t lived up to his own doctrine.
>> Now, I don’t have a problem with people who want to worship God on Saturday. <<
Of course not, we all do. What’s insane with Adventists is that they think everyone is going to be destroyed because if they worship on Sunday.
And here’s the thing: They always start in with attacking mainstream Christianity, and succeed in doing much damage to many people’s faith in their own denomination,... but then the 7th-Day Adventist faith is utterly abhorrent to most people.
>> Mankind doesn’t “know” any of these things are wrong. <<
That’s preposterous. Paul, in his letter to the Romans makes it quite plain that all sinners can justly be convicted because they all can discern God’s law from his creation.
>> Mankind doesn’t know it’s wrong to steal anymore than they know it’s wrong to violate the Lord’s sabbath. <<
Then how do primitive tribespeople in New Guinea write laws not to steal?
>> Does it say “These two commandments “REPLACE and OBSELETE” all other commandment? <<
Uh, yeah, just not right there. You’ve already seen others post the dozens of places where the New TEstament explicitly states the law is abolished; you just choose not to believe it. And yet, the law is still worth knowing, because it does teach us how to fulfill those two commandments.
>> I’m sure God inspired him with these passages: <<
Well, then Peter made one amazing logical leap!
>> In other words, we can define for ourselves what “Love of God” and “love of neighbor” means. That’s exactly why our society has abortion, homosexuality, adultery, child sex, pornography and a host of other evils. It’s exactly because the philosophy you are espousing has turned standards of behavior associated with Godly love into a burdensome law. <<
No-one commits pedophilia, embraces pornography, kills babies, etc., without shame. Paul explains it perfectly: they know in their hearts it is wrong, so they harden their hearts.
>> I have a surprise for you. There’s not one perfect Christian denomination, cult or sect. Just as there’s not one perfect person on earth, there’s not one perfect organization. <<
There is no denomination without sinful people; evil people will feign spirituality in any system. But there is true doctrine handed on intact for two thousand years, and then there is strange doctrine, invented to explain why the world didn’t end in October, 1844.
But I will give you this much credit: I slammed Adventists hard, and you didn’t bite for the bait.
Can we intuitively discern any of the commandments? When animals kill or steal, we do not question motive, nor do we consider it to be sin.
12 And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh.
13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.
Malachi 1:11...For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts.
Thought I'd like to add these.
Swell thread. Thanks so much..
Thank you for that question. It made for an interesting study.
God doesn't use the ten commandments as an accusation, but as a way to bring people to repentance, to make them aware that there are Godly laws and to make people realize they're violating them. When that realization comes, and if people follow the instructions of the Lord, then he will give them his spirit so they can overcome this sin. Not of themselves or their effort, but through the effort of the holy spirit and letting the spirit live in and through them.
Satan is exactly the opposite. He doesn't WANT people to realize they're sinning. He'll convince them that breaking God's laws isn't really sinning. It's deception:
1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jo 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
He'll suggest that there are no laws. Or that they're mistaken about God's purpose. Eve and the serpent in the garden is a classic example.
But Satan knows perfectly well that he wants everyone else to be. there ARE laws. He accuses us before God. However, he fails to abide by those laws because he doesn't want to live by them, in his vanity he thinks his way is better than Gods.
So God does have laws?
Mankind doesn’t know it’s wrong to steal anymore than they know it’s wrong to violate the Lord’s sabbath.
Then how do primitive tribespeople in New Guinea write laws not to steal?
Societies and cultures have rules and laws that make it easier to get along. If there were a society where murder was encouraged and acceptable than people who don't know God's laws would murder. And again, God does have laws?
Does it say “These two commandments “REPLACE and OBSELETE” all other commandment?
Uh, yeah, just not right there. You’ve already seen others post the dozens of places where the New TEstament explicitly states the law is abolished; you just choose not to believe it. And yet, the law is still worth knowing, because it does teach us how to fulfill those two commandments.
I guess you're going to have to reconcile your views because now you're saying the law is abolished and the last two paragraphs you're saying it exists.
No-one commits pedophilia, embraces pornography, kills babies, etc., without shame. Paul explains it perfectly: they know in their hearts it is wrong, so they harden their hearts.
People kill babies without shame every day. People embrace pornography without shame. Our society is well on it's way to making nothing shameful. Homosexuality isn't shameful for many. Adultery isn't shameful for many.
Children have to be taught NOT to steal. To share, etc. We do this to socialize them, to make them get along. But we constantly have inner sin, sins of mind and spirit, until God grants us repentance.
God doesn't use the ten commandments as an accusation, but as a way to bring people to repentance, to make them aware that there are Godly laws and to make people realize they're violating them.
Repentance does not come about unless one 1.) stands rightly accused and condemned by God's Law, and 2.) believes that the Lord Jesus Christ took upon Himself the punishment we deserve on account of our disobedience.
The accusations of Satan have been rendered worthless because Christ has paid the price - in human flesh - for our disobedience from cradle to grave. This we must hear and believe again and again because, like the Disciples, we fail to comprehend the magnitude of our transgressions and the grace of God that far exceeds our disobedience, and how the grace and glory of God are most explicitly set forth in the innocent suffering, death, and resurrection of the Christ who is our Righteousness forever.
If anything, Satan's intent in accusing us is to drive us to despair of Christ.
I believe that these are both essential functions of salvation, but that repentance can come without the realization of the sacrifice of Christ. That repentance won't save, but it's an essential part of the process of salvation. Repentance should lead to belief that Christ's sacrifice paid the sin for our penalty which should lead to the gift of the holy spirit. Acts 19 chronicles the sequence. Acts 2:38 sums it up:
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
But I suspect we're saying the same thing in different ways so I thank you for your insight.
A true and accurate conviction regarding one’s own station before God as a sickling cannot come about without God’s own work through the Holy Spirit, Who together with Christ and God the Father desires to draw all people from all walks of life (including those who enter the vineyard at the eleventh hour) to Himself forever through the innocent suffering, death, and resurrection of Christ Jesus. Satan hates that. He’s jealous and would desire a total divorce between God and man (who is flesh of God’s good creation).
When Satan takes the Word of God and the commandments on his lips it is to deceive and lead us to despair. The righteousnes of Christ Jesus on our behalf trumps any and every accusation against us, even the true accusation that we do not fear and love God above all things or love our neighbor as ourselves. That righteouss belongs to all who believe in His saving merits, no matter how frail and misguided we at times behave by nature.
So, true repentance (and you are right in noting there such thing as a repentance without faith such as that of those who change their ways not out of the fear of God but out of a desire to succeed on their own merits) is a work of God that begins with the commandments showing His righteousness which is perfect and never changes.
You speak of sins of the mind and spirit, what are they? When we are created in Christ, the new or spiritual man does not sin.
Matt 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.I think that sins of the mind are not the same as sins of the spirit. I suspect that sins of the spirit are unpardonable.
I Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
>> Societies and cultures have rules and laws that make it easier to get along. If there were a society where murder was encouraged and acceptable than people who don’t know God’s laws would murder. <<
See, that’s just it: Pre-Christian and pagan cultures didn’t permit anyone to murder anyone. Most people get squeamish about killing a large bug, unless they are socialized to. It’s instinct to be repulse by blood; that’s why so many people are concerned about slasher movies, and gore on TV: people have to be “desensitized” to be able to kill.
>> And again, God does have laws? <<
I’d thought my answer was implicit, but I’ll be explicit: There are two big commandments. EVerything else is what government would call, “implementing regulations.” The nine commandments we read about people being punished for are nine corollaries of the two big commandments. IOW, you can’t break a commandment without breaking one of the two big commandments.
>> I guess you’re going to have to reconcile your views because now you’re saying the law is abolished and the last two paragraphs you’re saying it exists. <<
It’s a matter of senses, and I haven’t been clear, so I will now: the law, in the sense of an outside threat of punishment, is abolished. That fear of punishment places an emnity between Man and God that God wished to destroy, so he sent his Son so that we would act out of a different principle, a desire for love.
>> People kill babies without shame every day. People embrace pornography without shame. Our society is well on it’s way to making nothing shameful. Homosexuality isn’t shameful for many. Adultery isn’t shameful for many. <<
What you describe is “hard-heartedness.” Abortionists are very trained to teach that “skill” to their patients. Shame is a healthy emotion which leads to contrition, but if the shameful practice continues, it leads to hard-heartedness and a vengeful anger.
Why do the vast majority of women drink when they lose their virginity? Shame. Why do people get their pornography over the internet? Shame. Why do homosexuals hate Christianity? Shame. And sadly, why do sex-assault victims stay quiet? Shame. (This is the meaning of “scandal”: when the sinfulness of one person is so great, that it creates shame in another which then becomes an obstacle to that other person’s salvation. The punishments of Hell are stored up to be unleashed against the scandalizer; the scandalized receives great mercy.)
See, that’s the great, big mistake behind Martin Luther: He believed, like Freud and Dr. Ruth and most modern psychologists, that if one would only go and “sin boldly,” one would discover that Christ loved us anyway, and we would, therefore, know of our forgiveness. And so he argued that it didn’t matter what we did, as long as we had faith, we would grow in the love of Christ. What he failed to consider is that committing atrocious sins makes people ashamed, and, therefore, unable to believe Christ loves them, and unwilling to repent.
If this weren’t so deep in an otherwise exhausted thread, I’d have a thousand Protestants jump in to tell me that I’ve misconstrued “sola fides.” I have not. The Catholic Church has explicitly stated in a concordant with most global Lutheran bodies there is nothing wrong with the current notion of “sola fides;” but the current one is not what Luther actually taught.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.