Posted on 04/21/2007 9:24:38 AM PDT by DouglasKC
Mazol Tov
Acts 11: 2 So when Peter went up to Jerusalem, the circumcised believers criticized him 3 and said, "You went into the house of uncircumcised men and ate with them."
Just glanced through it, but I don’t believe, or want to believe, that the prohibition against pork still stands.
Having said that, the Torah itself seems to argue that kosher is not mandatory for Gentiles living outside of the land of Israel, since God did not command Noah to eat only clean animals, even though Noah knew the difference between clean and unclean.
Not confusing anything, B-Man. Peter clearly had the chance to dispute the charge. Instead he justified the actions.
That’s always been very significant to me when it is coupled with Paul’s charge against Peter’s later hypocrisy in the Galatians.
Did Peter and Paul eat pork?
I’m betting on a BLT somewhere along the way....especially with Paul.
The Pharisees said much the same thing. They viewed their traditions as the "law of the Lord". They could not believe how everyone did not see things their way.
For 2000 years now, the Church has correctly taught that the food laws given to Israel were a temporary expression of typological significance. They were shadows that served to point us to Jesus Christ, the Bread of Life. They were used temporarily to make a sharp distinction between one physical nation, Israel, and all the other physical nations.
But that old Israel no longer exists. We no longer distinguish between physical peoples in the household of God. There are all nations tribes, tongues, and people found in the new royal priesthood and holy nation.
Fittingly, we have a new set of “food laws” under the new covenant. It’s called the Lord’s Supper and it is simply the universal expression of fellowship by the community of faith for those who have been washed in the Blood of the Lamb.
Those who rely on the food laws of old Israel to express their spirituality are denying the very coming into the world of Jesus Christ to make one new man, both Jew and gentile.
“For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.” (Eph. 2:14-16)
Paul and the other apostles deny this very cultic expression of the old covenant as being decayed and passed away.
I disagree that it's apples and oranges. God gave us written laws so that we would *know* when we were walking in his spirit...i.e. letting his spirit live in us.
Anyone who does walk by the spirit has no need for the law to tell them what is right and wrong. In fact, those that walk by the spirit don’t need to know the difference between right and wrong, but the difference between good and best.
Poppycock. Once again that's like saying we don't need any standards. We can determine our own standards. Because without an objective standard of what exactly "walking by the spirit" means...or what love means, than man is quickly deceived into doing what they think is best. It reminded me of this verse:
Jdg 21:25 In those days there was no king in Israel: every man did that which was right in his own eyes.
Today, without adhering to a standard, there is no king in Israel. Every man is doing what is right in their own eyes.
It also reminds me of this:
Pro 12:15 The way of a fool is right in his own eyes: but he that hearkeneth unto counsel is wise.
The counsel in this case is scripture. The word of God.
ANYONE who trusts in the law for guidance or rules to live by is carnal and the carnal mind is at emnity with God.
Anyone who trusts in following rules in order to gain righteousness or salvation is of a carnal mind. But anyone who let's the spirit of Christ live in and through him will naturally keep God's laws. I think this is a pretty clear statement and is provable through scripture. I suspect the only reason why anyone is disputing it is that if true they would have to consider the possibility that God's laws are still in effect.
The more rules a church has the less they walk in the spirit.
Don’t eat this, don’t drink that, don’t dance, don’t watch TV, can’t wear make up, etc. shows lack of spiritual walk.
By that logic, then the church that has no rules is the most spiritually advanced. Your church has no rules? Can somebody show up naked? Can somebody stand up in the middle of a sermon and start swearing and shouting? Can somebody advocate sleeping with someone else's spouse? Or is it that the most spiritually advanced church will naturally be doing these things without the need to enforce the rules?
The big difference, as you said, is that they viewed THEIR traditions as the law of the Lord. The Lord himself was the one who designated which animals to eat and which ones not to eat.
For 2000 years now, the Church has correctly taught that the food laws given to Israel were a temporary expression of typological significance.
They were shadows that served to point us to Jesus Christ, the Bread of Life. They were used temporarily to make a sharp distinction between one physical nation, Israel, and all the other physical nations.
I don't think it's been 2000 years, but certainly that seems to be the tradition of traditional Christianity. Kind of like they're elevated their tradition to the the law of the Lord. Sounds familiar.
“For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.” (Eph. 2:14-16)
There you go again, mixing up the traditions of men with the word of God. The Lord's laws don't cause division or strife. The Lord's laws cause peace, harmony and love.
Absolutely WRONG!
So wrong I couldn't even read past that....
Peter had to VIOLATE the law in order to walk in the spirit.
The law is sense knowledge and those in the senses cannot walk in the spirit....walking in the spirit may mean you do things, go places, meet people that you'd normally never, ever consider if you obeyed the law. Ask Peter.
Joshua had to tear down the 'groves' which mean destroying someone else's property. Are you willing to tear down a church steeple if the spirit tells you to? The law says no. The spirit says yes. But YOU won't do it because of man's law.
Walking by the law guarantees you won't walk by the spirit.
You're a law keeper, so what does that tell you?
Which of course brings up a couple of points. The first is that God HAD created animals as clean or unclean. They weren't just "rules" he developed for Israel. They existed long before Israel came into being:
Gen 7:7 And Noah went in, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him, into the ark, because of the waters of the flood.
Gen 7:8 Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth,
Gen 7:9 There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.
The second point is that if God didn't intend for Noah and everyone else to only eat clean beasts, then why have more clean beasts be on the ark?
Gen 7:2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.
There is no record of Noah ever eating unclean animals. The Lord had designated that certain animals were clean and others were not. It's extremely doubtful that Noah would eat animals that the Lord had not designated as clean and still be righteous to God:
Gen 7:1 And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.
Peter violated NON SCRIPTURAL MAN MADE LAWS. I don't know why you can't understand the difference.
Yes, indeed!
However the church stepped up and suppressed the Lord’s approval of “Spam” and “White Castle Burgers” because both were considered “too much fun”
Moses was NOT amused...........
For ancient cultic Israel. A nation which no longer exists. Israel has been expanded to include men and women from every nation under heaven. As such cultic food laws such as God gave to ancient Israel are no longer appropriate.
The apostles and the Church built upon their teachings have understood that quite clearly for 2000 years. Food laws were a shadow. Folks who observe them live in the shadows, in the darkness that does not recognize the true appearing of Messiah and what that meant for His people.
Food laws only divide. That was their purpose for ancient Israel, to divide them from all the other nations. The new Israel demonstrates its commitment to the Lord Jesus by observing the Lord’s Supper, the true fellowship meal.
See post 171. These "cultic food laws" created by the Lord were in existence since at least the time of Noah...long before national Israel came into existence.
The apostles and the Church built upon their teachings have understood that quite clearly for 2000 years. Food laws were a shadow. Folks who observe them live in the shadows, in the darkness that does not recognize the true appearing of Messiah and what that meant for His people.
Those who ignore them ignore the clear word of the messiah and substitute their own understanding and tradition for his word.
Food laws only divide. That was their purpose for ancient Israel, to divide them from all the other nations. The new Israel demonstrates its commitment to the Lord Jesus by observing the Lord’s Supper, the true fellowship meal.
What's to divide?? Christ said "Don't eat certain animals". Either obey him or not but don't say that it's divisive to take him at his word and convey that word to others. I think it's more divisive to tell the Lord that he didn't know what he was talking about when he created these animals.
“I said to Peter before them all, ‘If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews? 15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles.’” (Gal. 2:14,15)
Peter was living like a gentile. No problem -- until he turned into a hypocrite.
Hilarious conjecture. Peter didn't have to be eating pork chops and shrimp cocktails in order to be violating manmade laws. In fact, Peter himself explains this earlier in Acts:
Act 10:28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath showed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.
Act 10:28 And he said to them, "You yourselves know how unlawful it is for a man who is a Jew to associate with a foreigner or to visit him; and yet God has shown me that I should not call any man unholy or unclean.(NASB>
Show me in scripture where the Lord says it's "unlawful" for a Jew to associate with or visit a gentile. It's not there. These were MANMADE, NON-SCRIPTURAL JEWISH RELIGIOUS REGULATIONS.
Peter's "crime" to the Judaizers was breaking these Jewish laws, not eating food that the Lord himself said shouldn't be eaten.
An argument from silence. There is no record of Noah eating any specific kind of animal, “clean” or “unclean”.
Now, let’s look a bit further to get the big picture.
“Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. I have given you all things, even as the green herbs. 4 But you shall not eat flesh with its life, that is, its blood.” (Gen. 9:3,4).
Note that Noah is given “every moving thing” as food. No distinction here between clean and unclean. “Every moving thing.” Pigs and cows, sheep and camels. The only “food law” is that it should be completely killed (drained of blood) before eaten.
But, we are not left to guessing why additional clean animals were taken on the ark. It was not for food, but for sacrifice.
“Then Noah built an altar to the Lord, and took of every clean animal and of every clean bird, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.” (Gen. 8:20)
So, after carefully examining the Bible, we see there is no law given or practice to support the idea of clean and unclean animals as food until the time of the giving of the cultic laws under Moses.
All you need to do is read the entire Bible to find the answers.
Nice theory, but you have yet to explain exactly how Peter was “liv[ing] in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews” in Antioch and not eating gentile food.
BTW, it does say they were “Judaizers”. It merely says there were men from James of the circumcision. The burden of hypocrisy is plainly on Peter, not the men.
True enough. But I could say the same thing about your conjecture that Noah was eating a side of bacon.
Now, let’s look a bit further to get the big picture. “Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. I have given you all things, even as the green herbs. 4 But you shall not eat flesh with its life, that is, its blood.” (Gen. 9:3,4). Note that Noah is given “every moving thing” as food. No distinction here between clean and unclean. “Every moving thing.” Pigs and cows, sheep and camels. The only “food law” is that it should be completely killed (drained of blood) before eaten.
Really? Everything? He could eat poisonous fish and frogs? He could eat poisonous plants? Of course not. So you're trying to turn this into a verse that says Noah could chow down on anything he pleased doesn't hold water.
But, we are not left to guessing why additional clean animals were taken on the ark. It was not for food, but for sacrifice.
Gen 8:20 Then Noah built an altar to the LORD, and took of every clean animal and of every clean bird and offered burnt offerings on the altar.
Gen 8:21 The LORD smelled the soothing aroma...
Yeah, okay. The Lord invented animals clean and unclean. He invented man in his own image. He demanded that man only sacrifice clean animals...in essence that God would only accept, ingest, clean animals. And yet man could ingest the unclean. That makes no sense at all. Unless of course you want to cling to the tradition that the bible is wrong and tradition is right.
So, after carefully examining the Bible, we see there is no law given or practice to support the idea of clean and unclean animals as food until the time of the giving of the cultic laws under Moses.
I hope that when you're before the Lord in the resurrection that you don't refer to his laws as "cultic laws". It just sounds like you've got a beef (no pun intended) over what he tells us do to.
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