Catholic congregation sues diocese

AP ^ | May 12, 2007

[NYer]

PASS CHRISTIAN, Miss. (AP) — Bishop Thomas J. Rodi says he is deeply saddened by a lawsuit filed by more than 150 members of Holy Family Parish, formerly St. Paul Parish in Pass Christian.

The suit, filed May 1, names Rodi, the Diocese of Biloxi and Holy Family pastor the Rev. Dennis Carver as defendants. The bishop's response was published Friday in the Gulf Pine Catholic, the diocese's newspaper, and was reprinted on http://www.sunherald.com.

The lawsuit asks the court to compel the diocese to rebuild the church on the beach and get an accounting of donations made to the church after Hurricane Katrina.

Rodi writes that the lawsuit "is not in keeping with our understanding of the fundamental nature of the Catholic Church. We are a church, not independent congregations. In faith, worship and practice, we are in union."

Some of the 156 plaintiffs have said the St. Paul Church property on Scenic Drive was originally deeded and trusted to that Catholic congregation and money raised to rebuild St. Paul church will not be used to do so.

Eric D. Wooten, the Gulfport attorney for the plaintiffs, said the lawsuit is not about trying to keep St. Paul Church open. He said the bishop has a responsibility to manage the property in the best interest of the parish.

"We just want to know what's become of the money collected for St. Paul Parish," Wooten said.

Wooten said those who filed the lawsuit want assurance from the court that the diocese is holding the St. Paul property and money in trust for the congregation, "so the property can't be sold to a developer," he said.

"Bishop Rodi is my bishop, and I have great respect for him," Wooten said. "I don't file suits unless I think I can win them, and I'm confident Mississippi law is behind our position. I think it supports our claims."

Rodi, who is a canon lawyer, said in his published statement that the lawsuit is an attempt to have the courts order the Catholic Church to have a church building in a specific place.

"If this lawsuit would be successful, it would mean, in effect, that the courts would tell the Catholic Church where God must be worshipped, where Mass and other sacraments must be celebrated and how the Catholic Church must use the financial resources of Holy Family Parish," he wrote. "This lawsuit attacks both the unity and the liberty of the Church."

[NYer]

So much for “we are Church”.

[Jaded]

Guess they were taking lessons from the folks in Boston and KC.

[pjr12345]

These people's concern is certainly valid. Unfortunately, the organizational and hierarchical structure of any centrally managed denomination, besides being non-Scriptural, does not lend itself to an expeditious settling of matters where the accuser is laity and the defendant is (high level) clergy.

Would that Paul's words to the Corinthians could be heeded:

1Corinthians 6:1-8 -- 1 If any of you has a dispute with another, dare he take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the saints? 2 Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? 3 Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life! 4 Therefore, if you have disputes about such matters, appoint as judges even men of little account in the church![a] 5 I say this to shame you. Is it possible that there is nobody among you wise enough to judge a dispute between believers? 6 But instead, one brother goes to law against another—and this in front of unbelievers!

7 The very fact that you have lawsuits among you means you have been completely defeated already. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be cheated? 8 Instead, you yourselves cheat and do wrong, and you do this to your brothers.

[HaveHadEnough]

Rodi, who is a canon lawyer, said in his published statement that the lawsuit is an attempt to have the courts order the Catholic Church to have a church building in a specific place.

Perhaps. But if money was raised with the promise that the church would be built in the same place, I don't see a problem with the lawsuit.

[dangus]

Your position is that overseers/episcopi/bishops are non-scriptural? The very quote you post chastises Christians for civil suits, and demands that they turn instead to church authorities.

[pjr12345]

Your position is that overseers/episcopi/bishops are non-scriptural?

No. My position is that a structured, top-down organization with a ruling hierarchy is non-Scriptural.

Certainly in each local, independent congregation there must be elders and deacons (by whatever name you wish to apply to them). However, these folks must meet the biblical requirements, and are drawn from the local congregation. They are not superior to anyone else in any way, they humbly serve the congregation in fulfilling the duties of the office.

[Alex Murphy]

I was thinking of Acts 5:3-4 myself. Where did the money go?

Then Peter said, "Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land?
Didn't it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn't the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied to men but to God."

[dangus]

>> They are not superior to anyone else in any way, they humbly serve the congregation in fulfilling the duties of the office. <<

The only way it is not nonsensical to say “overseers” are not “superior” is to play with the senses of the words. Plainly an overseer was not superior in the sense that he was presumed to be more loved by God or something like that; plainly humility is a sought-after value. But, as the very passage you posted showed, he did have the authority to oversee, and to make rulings.

The passage you posted implied a ruling hierarchy. By name, “overseer” suggests top-down. And the fact that the position was a fixed, annointed position means it was certainly structured.

What there is no mention of in the bible are parish councils.

The Episcopal parishes’ lawsuits have merit because they can argue that the nature of the Episcopal Church changed without the parishes agreeing to the changes, that the ECUSA/TEC is the body that is in schism.

Incidentally, what I say is in no way intended to concur with the bishop, but merely to endorse the notion that bishops are scriptural. He may be badly abusing his authority for all I know. If the diocese raises monies under the pretext that they are going to a specific church with the intent of keeping the money for other purposes, that is certainly immoral and the bishop will face the Supreme Judge for it.

On the other hand, if the parish feels like going on a fishing expedition, using civil authorities to compel acquiesence by the diocese, then the parish members who have done this are quite roundly convicted by the very scripture passage you cited.

[topher]

These people's concern is certainly valid.

Sorry, building Catholic Churches on beaches in this area is lunacy.

The Mississippi Gulf Coast is where they started giving Category Strengths to hurricanes.

Hurricane Camille had SUSTAINED WINDS of 200mph. It makes Hurricane Katrina look like a pitifully weak storm.

Basically, there were hundreds of people missing after this hurricane, and it washed away the coastal area and just fatten everything in sight. SUSTAINED 200 MPH WINDS ARE A HABIT OF DOING THIS!!!

However, Galveston must have some very Holy CHURCHES. There Catholic Church there that have survived serious hurricanes, and yet neighoring Protestant churches were washed away...

[topher]

From the article:

The lawsuit asks the court to compel the diocese to rebuild the church on the beach ...

This congregation must be crazy. They should build at least a mile inland... Hurricane Camille is why...

This church must have been built after Hurricane Camille. There is no way a beach front Church could have survived Camille...

Hurricane Katrina is a mild hurricane compared to the destructive force of Camille (200 mph sustained winds)

[pjr12345]

Perhaps I got it wrong. I was under the impression that donations were made specifically for the purpose of rebuilding their local parish church. If I got this wrong, then I must concede the point due to my own lack of knowledge about RCC commitments in the use of contributions.

[PAR35]

However, Galveston must have some very Holy CHURCHES. There Catholic Church there that have survived serious hurricanes, and yet neighoring Protestant churches were washed away..

So, by YOUR definition, we know that the 90 children and 10 nuns killed when St. Mary's Orphanage was washed away couldn't have been holy. Do you think they would have been spared were they Protestant?

[PAR35]

This church must have been built after Hurricane Camille. There is no way a beach front Church could have survived Camille

First Presbyterian, Biloxi. 1340 Beach Boulevard. Survived both Camille and Katrina.

[NYer]

I thought of you tonight. During the Intinction, Fraction and Comingling at tonight's Ascension Thursday liturgy, we sang the hymn of St. Charbel.

O Merciful Father of Truth
Take from us this offering
The offering of your Son the Savior
Sea of Love and Forgiveness.
O First born of the Father
Jesus the beloved Savior.
You are alive O Son of God.
You are alive O Crucified One.
O Merciful Father of Truth
Take from us this offering.
The offering of your Son, the Savior.
Sea of Love and Forgiveness.

BTW - this is the only image we have of St. Charbel. It is his face in death. While alive, he always cast his face downwards in total humility to God.

[NYer]

I thought of you tonight. During the Intinction, Fraction and Comingling at tonight's Ascension Thursday liturgy, we sang the hymn of St. Charbel.

O Merciful Father of Truth
Take from us this offering
The offering of your Son the Savior
Sea of Love and Forgiveness.
O First born of the Father
Jesus the beloved Savior.
You are alive O Son of God.
You are alive O Crucified One.
O Merciful Father of Truth
Take from us this offering.
The offering of your Son, the Savior.
Sea of Love and Forgiveness.

BTW - this is the only image we have of St. Charbel. It is his face in death. While alive, he always cast his face downwards in total humility to God.

[pjr12345]

St. Charbel... hmmm, he’s a new one on me.

[pjr12345]

BTW, I want it to be on the record that I did not bring up the whole “saint” thing on this thread. I have been very respectful and focused on the topic.

Let’s not pick the scab of this off-topic subject; you know very well my positions.

[narses]

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[topher]

In Galveston, there are plagues on Churches that have been standing for about 140 years. The plague said that their were churches just a block away that were destroyed.

It was the plague on the church that said this.

I am not sure what the reference to St. Marys Orphanage is.

But Hurricane Camille back about 1968-1970 was a terrible storm. Things were flattened by this storm by the 200 mph sustained winds.

I do not believe that Galveston Island has had such a severe hurricane.

And my reference to Galveston was because of reading the plague on the church.

Now it could have been that the Catholic Church was made of stone or something of that nature. But I remember seeing statues (outside) up high on one of these churches that apparently survived a storm.

I never made any reference to people...

For certain hurricanes in the 1960s and 1970s, people in coastal areas were advised to get out, and there was a terrible loss of life for Audra, which hit Cameron Parish (South of Lake Charles, LA) circa 1960.

Hurricane Camille was the worst of the storms, as people without a few hundred yards of the water (Gulf) lost their lives between the 200 mph winds and I guess the storm surge...