Posted on 06/02/2007 12:50:30 PM PDT by Titanites
She is not the mother of God. John 1:1 - “In the beginning was the Word (Jesus), and the Word (Jesus) was with God, and the Word (Jesus) was God. How could she be His mother when He existed long before she was ever conceived? He was God long before He was born in a manger.
Neither was Paul a Catholic. Paul was inspired of God and used by God to write much of the N.T. Catholicism teaches salvation by works (hence, another gospel) — Paul taught no such thing.
And she was in the mind and plan of God from the beginning.
I've read it. I see nothing supporting the notion of praying to the departed or requesting they pray on our behalf (let alone venerate them). I don't need another intercessor in Heaven. I have one in Jesus Christ, and through Him I have direct access to the Holy of Holies.
For the immense amount of attention given to Mary by the Roman Catholic Church, I find it rather odd that there is pretty much no mention of her at all outside of the four gospels.
BTW, I made a typo in the first post. It should have read "you’re just ever so careful to make the distinction between latria, dulia and hyper-dulia."
2. Papal infallibility is scriptural. Our use of scripture to support what we do has nothing to do with the silly protestant notion of sola scriptura...the ENTIRE Mass is scripture based.
So is snake handling :)
Papal infallibility is most certainly not scriptural. Paul proved that early on. Moreover, the ultimate appeal for papal infallibility always returns to Scripture, and the validity of the appeal from the Roman Catholic standpoint always rests upon the self-reinforcing argument of papal infallibility. Scripture says the Pope is infallible. How do we know it said so? Because the Pope said so. How do we know he's right? Because Scripture says the Pope is infallible. And so on...
3. Prove to me that the Eucharist is non-scriptural.
Doesn't work that way, friend. I'm claiming the Roman Catholic view of the Eucharist not in Scripture. If you want I can post the entirety of Scripture here and say, "See...it's not there." But nobody wants to scroll that much. Your burden friend, not mine.
I don't even need to go that far though. The doctrine of transubstantiation contradicts the definition of Chalcedon by conferring divine attributes upon Christ's human flesh.
Have you even been to Mass? Why bash something if you’ve failed to do first-hand research?
Yes...and I will never attend one again if I can help it. From a doctrinal standpoing I find it to be gross heresy.
Thanks for the correction. That was actually a typo on my part as I intended to include latria and didn't realize I'd left it out until I read the statement in the reply I received.
Thanks for "keeping me honest" though ;)
Eucharist- I posted Gospel references earlier and was told....well that’s not really what it means. Words of Jesus Christ himself are ignored.
I have actually heard a SB minister read from the bible and say that’s not really what it means. You’re not alone.
According to you Jesus came into the world through a sinful creature.
The Scriptures say otherwise.Mr solo scripture
Will GOD join Himself to anything defiled’? NO!
Some examples.....
Because into a soul that plots evil wisdom enters not, nor dwells she in a body under debt of sin. For the holy spirit of discipline flees deceit and withdraws from senseless counsels; and when injustice occurs it is rebuked
Wis 1:4-5,
Lo, the hand of the LORD is not too short to save, nor his ear too dull to hear.
Rather, it is your crimes that separate you from your God, It is your sins that make him hide his face so that he will not hear you.
For your hands are stained with blood, your fingers with guilt; Your lips speak falsehood, and your tongue utters deceit.
No one brings suit justly, no one pleads truthfully; They trust in emptiness and tell
lies; they conceive mischief and bring forth malice
Isa 59:1-4,
Whom is she the mother of then?
Actually a better way to say it is, “who is Jesus?”
Evidently, Calvinists don’t consider Jesus to be part of the Holy Trinity. No sense even debating them. Their ears have been closed by something...and it’s obvious Truth is something they’re unwilling to hear.
All (includes Mary), unless you're like Bill Clinton and apply his philosophy to "all" as he did with "is." Jesus Christ is the only One who ever walked the face of this earth as a man and did not sin. God's Word refers to Him as One Who "knew no sin." John also said, "if anyone says he (or she), says they are without sin, they are liars and the truth is not in them." Mary could not and never said, "I am without sin." No where in the Bible suggest such even remotely that Mary was "without sin." If I read the OT Scriptures correctly, the Spirit of God came upon the "prophets of old" quite frequently and they likewise were not without sin. When a man or woman today accepts Christ, the Spirit of God takes us residence within us, and we are not without sin. Mary was indeed blessed among all women, but whe was not "without sin."
Why would you think Jesus would enter the world through a sinful creature?
You are misinterpreting your Bible when it accounts for the birth of Jesus
You said...
“If I read the OT Scriptures correctly, the Spirit of God came upon the “prophets of old” quite frequently and they likewise were not without sin.”
Dear Friend ,you are overlooking a MAJOR difference
He did NOT take flesh from those “prophets of old”to enter the world.
He took flesh from Mary,therefore she HAD to be sinless.
Unless you are going to say that Jesus was not worthy to entering the world through perfection? If I were you I would refrain from answering .
History of the Saints and early Church Fathers tell you that Mary was Sinless.
Here are a few writings
“He was the ark formed of incorruptible wood. For by this is signified that His tabernacle was exempt from putridity and corruption.” Hippolytus, Orations Inillud, Dominus pascit me (ante A.D. 235).
“This Virgin Mother of the Only-begotten of God, is called Mary, worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, one of the one.” Origen, Homily 1(A.D. 244).
“Let woman praise Her, the pure Mary.” Ephraim, Hymns on the Nativity, 15:23 (A.D. 370).
“Thou alone and thy Mother are in all things fair, there is no flaw in thee and no stain in thy Mother.” Ephraem, Nisibene Hymns, 27:8 (A.D. 370).
*”O noble Virgin, truly you are greater than any other greatness. For who is your equal in greatness, O dwelling place of God the Word? To whom among all creatures shall I compare you, O Virgin? You are greater than them all O Covenant, clothed with purity instead of gold! You are the Ark in which is found the golden vessel containing the true manna, that is, the flesh in which divinity resides.” Athanasius, Homily of the Papyrus of Turin, 71:216 (ante AD 373).
“Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace has made inviolate, free of every stain of sin.” Ambrose, Sermon 22:30 (A.D. 388).
“We must except the Holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom I wish to raise no question when it touches the subject of sins, out of honour to the Lord; for from Him we know what abundance of grace for overcoming sin in every particular was conferred upon her who had the merit to conceive and bear Him who undoubtedly had no sin.” Augustine, Nature and Grace,4 2[36] (A.D.415).
“As he formed her without my stain of her own, so He proceeded from her contracting no stain.” Proclus of Constantinople, Homily 1 (ante A.D. 446).
“A virgin, innocent, spotless, free of all defect, untouched, unsullied, holy in soul and body, like a lily sprouting among thorns.” Theodotus of Ancrya, Homily VI:11(ante A.D. 446).
“The angel took not the Virgin from Joseph, but gave her to Christ, to whom she was pledged from Joseph, but gave her to Christ, to whom she was pledged in the womb, when she was made.” Peter Chrysologus, Sermon 140 (A.D. 449).
“[T]he very fact that God has elected her proves that none was ever holier than Mary, if any stain had disfigured her soul, if any other virgin had been purer and holier, God would have selected her and rejected Mary.” Jacob of Sarug (ante A.D. 521).
“She is born like the cherubim, she who is of a pure, immaculate clay.” Theotokos of Livias, Panegyric for the feast of the Assumption, 5:6 (ante A.D. 650).
*Note that Saint Anthanasius was first person to identify the same 27 books of the New Testament that are in use today..
He knew the Bible better then you and the Baptists, as did all the Saints,.
They all interpreted Scripture as Mary being sinless.
You trust them to be Guided by the Holy spirit to give you Bible canon and their witness tells you the Bible is the word of God.
If you deny this you are going to have to question whether bible canon was guided by the Holy Spirit.
I wish you a Blessed Evening
And you err again on the side of what man says and church dogma rather than God’s Word. Let me bless you with a biblical fact. When anyone stands before God, the only thing that will matter is God’s word. God has made His word simple enough for a child to understand. All else will burn in the fire. I speak as one “who knows in whom I have believed.”
Do you think you are equal to Mary?
Your Bible tells you that God will not Join Himself with anything defiled.
Jesus was fully joined with Mary in Her womb.
Do you believe that womb was stained by sin?
Pray before you answer,Dear friend.
As the Psalmist said, “I was conceived in iniquity.” That holds true for all of us in Adam. If Mary had been sinless, there would have been no need for Christ to die on our behalf. Mary could have fulfilled the mission herself! The Spirit of God takes us residence in the hearts of those who believe in Christ today. The Bible says except the Spirit of God dwells in us, we are not His. He enters the sinful hearts of those who accept Him. He then sanctifies what He enters. There is no biblical evidence that Mary was any less than a sinner in need of a Savior, as with us all. Mary found favor with God indeed and was surely blessed, yet not without sin.
“Mary found favor with God indeed and was surely blessed”
True,but Mary is the greatest creature God ever created .Mary is Higher than Abraham,David,Moses etc..
Because She was the first to receive Jesus
The Mistake you,re making is trying to equate God dwelling in “us” with God actually physically- Body Blood Soul and Divinity that literally was joined with Mary.
God in the flesh could not physically be joined with anything defiled.
Lets turn to Scripture again.
I,m going to have to walk you through some history of the Bible.
Luke 1:28 Uses the word “Kecharitomene: to describe Mary,s function,essence and being
The original Greek was kecharitomene, the perfect passive participle of charis, grace. St. Jerome translated it into Latin as gratia plena, “full of grace.” In Greek the perfect stem denotes a completed action with a permanent result. Kecharitomene means completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace. The Protestant Revised Standard Version translates Lk 1:28 as “highly favored daughter.” This is no mere difference of opinion but a conscious effort to distort St. Luke’s original Greek text. Had Mary been no more than “highly favored,” she would have been indistinguishable from Sarah the wife of Abraham, Anna the mother of Samuel, or Elizabeth the mother of John the Baptist, all of whom were long childless and “highly favored” because God acceded to their pleas to bear children. But neither Sarah nor Anna is described as kecharitomene in the Septuagint, a translation by 70 Jewish scholars of the Hebrew Scriptures for Greek-speaking Jews in Egypt. Nor does Luke use it to describe Elizabeth. Kecharitomene in this usage is reserved for Mary of Nazareth.
The word “kecharitomene” is a perfect passive participle of the verb “charitoo.”
Some have argued that this says nothing unique about Mary since Saint Stephen, just before he is martyred for the faith, is said to be full of grace in Acts 6:8. However a different word form is used to describe Saint Stephen. In the Greek the conjugated form of “charitoo” that is used to describe him is “charitos” not “kecharitomene” that is used in reference to Mary.
Some who oppose the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception have attempted to argue that the use of the verb “charitoo” in Luke 1:28 says nothing special about Mary since this same verb, although in a *different* form, is used to refer to all Christians in Ephesians 1:6.
However, Luke 1:28 uses a special conjugated form of “charitoo.” It uses “kecharitomene,” while Ephesians 1:6 uses “echaritosen,” which is a different form of the verb “charitoo.” Echaritosen means “he graced (bestowed grace.)- Echaritosen signifies a momentary action, an action brought to pass
Saint Luke does not use Mary as her name in Luke 1:28 He Changes it to “Kecharitomene” this is a new name , and we all know that name changes in Scripture are significant - Abram (Hebrew “father”) to Abraham (”father of multitudes), Jacob to Israel, Saul to Paul, Simon to Peter, etc.
This describes her very essence and being.
Mary, is named “kecharitomene” - because she is full of grace-full of perfection
Mary is the “New Eve.” She is greater then Eve in EVERY way
All the early Christan,s recognized this.
Some examples...(There are many more)
“He became man by the Virgin, in order that the disobedience which proceeded from the serpent might receive its destruction in the same manner in which it derived its origin. For Eve, who was a virgin and undefiled, having conceived the word of the serpent, brought forth disobedience and death. But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy, when the angel Gabriel announced the good tidings to her that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her, and the power of the Highest would overshadow her: wherefore also the Holy Thing begotten of her is the Son of God; and she replied, ‘Be it unto me according to thy word.’ And by her has He been born, to whom we have proved so many Scriptures refer, and by whom God destroys both the serpent and those angels and men who are like him; but works deliverance from death to those who repent of their wickedness and believe upon Him.” Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, 100 (A.D. 155).
There is one Physician who is possessed both of flesh and spirit; both made and not made; God existing in flesh; true life in death; both of Mary and of God; first possible and then impossible, even Jesus Christ our Lord.” Ignatius, To the Ephesians, 7 (c. A.D. 110)
Dear friend,Typology bears this out.
Remember the Old Testament is revealed in the New Testament and the Bible is God,s Book of Salvation history
Let me show you How typology is used to describe Prophecies Fulfilled by Jesus Death, Resurrection and Ascension.
Psalm 16:10; 30:3 - He will not be spared from death and yet remain incorrupt - Acts 2:31; 13:33,35 - Jesus conquered death and remained incorrupt.
Psalm 22:1 - My God, my God, why has thou forsaken me? - Matt. 27:46; Mark 15:34 - Jesus utters this rabbinical formula from the cross declaring that He is the Messiah.
Psalm 22:7 - the people will wag their heads at Him - Matt. 27:39; Mark 15:29 - the people wagged their heads at Jesus on the cross.
Psalm 22:7 - He will be mocked - Matt. 27:31; Mark 15:20; Luke 22:63; 23:36 - Jesus was mocked.
Psalm 22:16; Isa. 53:12 - He will be numbered with the transgressors - Matt. 27:38; Mark 15:27; Luke 23:32; John 19:18 - Jesus was numbered with the transgressors by being crucified between two thieves.
Psalm 22:16; Zech 12:10 - His hands and feet will be pierced and they will weep for the first-born - John 19:23,34,37 - Jesus’ hands and feet were pierced and his followers wept for Him, the true first-born Son of Israel.
Psalm 22:17 - they will stare and gloat over Him - Matt. 27:36; Luke 23:35 - the people stood by and stared at Jesus on the cross.
Psalm 22:18 - they will divide His garments among them - Matt. 27:35; Mark 15:24; Luke 23:34; John 19:23 - they divided Jesus’ garments among them.
Psalm 22:18 - they will cast lots for His garments - Matt. 27:35; Mark 15:24; Luke 23:34; John 19:24 - they cast lots for Jesus’ garments.
Psalm 30:3; 41:10, 118:17; Hos 6:2 - He will be raised to life on the third day - Acts 13:33, Matt. 28:6; Mark 16:6; Luke 24:34,46 - Jesus was raised to life on the third day.
Psalm 34:20 - He will not have broken bones - John 19:33,36 - none of Jesus’ bones were broken.
Psalm 41:9; 55:12-14 - He will be betrayed by a friend - Matt. 10:4; 26:20-25; Mark 14:18-21; John 13:18 - Jesus was betrayed by a friend.
Psalm 68:18 - He will ascend into heaven - Mark 16:19; Luke 24:51; John 20:17; Acts 1:9 - Jesus ascended into heaven.
Psalm 68:20 - He will escape the powers of death - Acts 2:31; 13:33; Matt 28:6; Mark 16:6, Luke 24:46; John 20:9-10 - Jesus escaped the powers of death through his resurrection.
Psalm 69:21 - they will give Him vinegar to drink - Matt. 27:34,48; Mark 15:23,36; Luke 23:36; John 19:29 - they gave Jesus vinegar to drink.
Psalm 110:1 - He will sit at the right hand of God - Heb. 1:3; Acts 2:34-35 - Jesus sits at the right hand of God.
Isaiah 50:6 - He will be spat upon - Matt. 26:67; Mark 15:19 - Jesus was spat upon.
Isaiah 50:6; Mic. 5:1 - the ruler of Israel’s cheek will be struck - Matt. 26:67; Luke 22:63; John 18:22 - Jesus was so struck and beaten.
Here is more typology on Old and New Testament Parallels of God the Father and God the Son
Exodus 3:14 - God says “I AM who I AM” - John 8:58 - Jesus says “Before Abraham was, I AM” in reference to Himself.
Deut. 4:2; 12:32 - the Lord God commands that we not add or take away from His word - Rev. 22:18-19 - Jesus so commands us not to add or take away from His word.
Deut. 32:39; 1 Sam. 2:6 - the Lord kills and makes alive again and raises up - John 5:21 - the Son raises and gives life.
Deut. 32:39 - neither is there any that can deliver out of God’s hand - John 10:28 - nor shall any pluck out of Jesus’ hand.
Deut. 32:43 - rejoice, ye heavens, with Him, and let all the angels of God worship Him - Heb. 1:6 - the “Him” is Jesus the Son.
2 Sam. 22:3 - God is the horn of salvation - Luke 1:68-69 - Jesus is the horn of salvation.
Psalm 19:7 - the law of the Lord is perfect - Gal. 6:2 - fulfill the law of Christ.
Psalm 24:10 - the Lord is the King of glory - 1 Cor. 2:8 - Jesus is the Lord of glory.
Psalm 45:7 - Therefore God, your God, has anointed you. God calls someone else God. This someone else is His eternally begotten Son - Heb. 1:9 - Therefore God, your God, has anointed you. cf. Heb. 1:8, 10.
Psalm 62:12 - the Lord God renders to each according to his work - Matt. 16:27; Rev. 22:12 - Jesus so renders to each according to his work
Isaiah 45:23 - to God, every knee shall bow and every tongue swear. Phil. 2:10-11 - at Jesus’ name every knee should bow and tongue confess.
Isaiah 48:17 - God is the Holy One - Acts 3:14 - Jesus is the Holy One.
Isaiah 60:19 - God is everlasting light - Revelation 21:23 - Jesus the Lamb is eternal light.
Jer. 17:10 - the Lord searches the hearts and repays us according to our deeds - Rev. 2:23 - Jesus searches the hearts and repays us according to our deeds.
Now , Here is typology concerning Mary. “The New Eve”
Old Testament Eve- Verses New Testament Mary
Created without original sin, Gen 2:22-25 = Created without original sin, Luke 1:28,42 *1
There was a virgin, Gen 2:22-25 = There is a virgin, Luke 1:27-34
There was a tree, Gen 2:16-17 = There was a cross made from a tree, Matt 27:31-35
There was a fallen angel, Gen 3:1-13 = There was a loyal angel, Luke 1:26-38
A satanic serpent tempted her, Gen 3:4-6 = A satanic dragon threatened her, Rev 12:4-6,13-17
There was pride, Gen 3:4-7 = There was humility, Luke 1:38
There was disobedience, Gen 3:4-7 = There was obedience, Luke 1:38
There was a fall, Gen 3:16-20 = There was redemption, John 19:34
Death came through Eve, Gen 3:17-19 = Life Himself came through Mary, John 10:28
She was mentioned in Genesis 3:2-22 = She was mentioned in Genesis 3:15
Could not approach the tree of life Gen 3:24 = Approached the “Tree of Life”, John 19:25
An angel kept her out of Eden, Gen 3:24 = An angel protected her, Rev 12:7-9
Prophecy of the coming of Christ, Gen 3:15 = The Incarnation of Christ, Luke 2:7
Firstborn was a man child, Gen 4:1 = Firstborn was a man child, Luke 2:7, Rev 12:5
Firstborn became a sinner, Gen 4:1-8 = Firstborn was the Savior, Luke 2:34
The mother of all the living, Gen 3:20 = The spiritual mother of all the living, John 19:27
Mary was PRESERVED from all stain of original sin at her creation so that she would be a “New Creation”, the “New Eve”
Lastly,It is NOT fitting that the Mother of God should bring shame to Her divine son.Therefor.God preserved Mary from any personal sin,wether mortal or venial.
Through the Grace of God,which was infused into her soul at the moment of her conception,at the very instant He created her soul and united it to her body. He did it in virtue of the merits of Christ.
No descendant of Adam receives the Grace of God except through the merits of Christ.
The Mother of Christ was no exception to this law of Grace.
Like every other human being who is descended of carnal generation from Adam,the blessed virgin Mary need to be redeemed by the blood of Christ,But wheras every other human being needs to be cleansed from the stain of original sin-which has contracted by way of carnal generation from Adam-the Virgin Mary did NOT need to be cleansed from original sin.Through the Grace of Christ she was preserved from the stain of sin.
Mary is closer to Christ than any other human being,because He took flesh from her and dwelt in her womb.
The closer one is to Christ,the source of all Grace,the greater degree of Grace one receives from Christ. Mary,therefor,received from Christ a fullness of Grace not granted to any other creature.
Her Immaculate Conception made her worthy to be Mother of God
Correction this should read....
The Mistake you,re making is trying to equate God dwelling in “us” with God actually physically *took flesh from Mary and His Body Blood Soul and Divinity that literally was joined with Mary. God dwells in us but took flesh from "only" the Blessed Mother.
Ping to 158 for correction
The universal view of the Church is that the Theotokos was, as it is sung about her at Matins in the Orthodox liturgy of the hours, "more honorable than the cherubim and more glorious beyond compare than the seraphim..." The seraphim are the highest angels. It is universally believed and stressed emphatically, especially by the Orthodox, that the Theotokos is God's greatest creation. But these days, along come people who think nobody has ever read the Bible before they did, and these say that she was a sinner, and that we should reject the universal testimony of the Church throughout all history, on their say-so.
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