The Relationship of Baptism to Salvation

Original Writing by pjr12345 | 5/2006 | pjr12345

[Mad Dawg]

I think pj was suggesting that you were arguing against points he was not making in a manner which suggested you thought he was making them, especially about the temporal relationship of salvation and Baptism. And I didn’t hear anything loud.

[Jim Noble]

thus God could not have done so

Your arms too short to box with God, brother.

What does "sovereign" mean to you?

Do you believe God can do what he wants to do, or does he have to check with you first?

[pjr12345]

My father once told me that the one talking the loudest in a discussion is probably wrong.

I'm sure your father was a very nice fellow.

Baptismal regeneration is definitely the minority position

So your argument is, "everyone's doin' it!"?

and I have studied the issue for over 30 years of ministry.

Correction: So your argument is, "everyone's doin't it, and so am I... for a long time!"?

I did read your entry, and find it unconvincing.

Maybe you did read my entry, but your reply posting was "canned". I'm sorry if it doesn't convince you. However, I would like to hear why. Also, I'd like you (or someone else) to square the logical question of "faith only". That is, does man possess free will?

[pjr12345]

I suppose I was wrong in my assumption.

Perhaps this is the best you got.

[Liberal Bob]

Let me check... yes, there it is... right above the doctrine that explains why he never rode a bicycle, and just below the doctrine that explains why he was never an acrobat.

Don't know about you, I don't need any doctrine to explain why something isn't covered in Scripture. I've got my hands full working with what's included.

Now that is a real strong doctrine. Now tell me why John the Baptist did not say the Christ would not ride a bicycle? He did tell us the Christ would not baptize by water, why?

[xzins]

And perhaps you didn’t answer the question.

What does the actual text say?

[pjr12345]

Your arms too short to box with God, brother.

Love this line!

Do you believe God can do what he wants to do

God cannot do "anything". There are certain limitations that are part of the definition of God, and there are certain restrictions He has placed upon Himself.

Examples of limitations that goes along with being God. He cannot make a rock so big He can't pick it up; the Supreme Being cannot make anything outside of His control. The Supreme Being cannot become more perfect, therefore He must possess all knowledge (cannot learn), be good (no evil), be just (punish sin), etc.

Examples of limitations that God has placed upon Himself. He will never destroy the earth by water again. He punishes sin with death. He allows no access to His grace except through Christ.

The argument that "God can do anything" is invalid. There are things He can't do, and things He won't do. This makes Him no less God.

[pjr12345]

He then told us that the Christ would “baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire”. A prophecy fulfilled on the day of Pentecost.

[Sloth]

Exactly! What in your doctrine explains why Jesus never baptized by water?

What was he using in John 3:22, kerosene?

[Sloth]

The Apostles may or may not have been baptized (Jesus was.) However, we have no way of knowing. Also, might their special relationship with the Lord, as confirmed at Pentecost, have played a role? They certainly had special authority due to this? Also, weren't they the ones who received the Great Commission? It said that they should baptize others, not each other. Hmm.

I would *strongly* argue that the apostles were baptized along with the 3,000 on Pentecost. Anything else would be the same kind of special exception you (correctly, IMO) deny the thief.

[pjr12345]

Acts 22:16

NKJV: And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

NIV: And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.

NAB: Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name.

KJV: And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Hope that helps. Now, I've got to get up, walk over to my kitchen, open a cabinet, reach in, grab a bag of cookies (with my hand), remove both the bag (with cookies inside) and my hand (still holding the bag filled with cookies), close the cabinet, turn around 180 degrees, walk back to my chair (in my office), sit down (in the chair), and commence to consuming unnecessary calories.

[pjr12345]

I'm thinking it was some of that milk from the "land of milk and honey". I don't think many folks would have gone along with being dipped in honey - especially if there were any bears around. Hey, maybe those folks opted for sprinkling!

[Ruy Dias de Bivar]

***Exactly! What in your doctrine explains why Jesus never baptized by water?***

“Let me check... yes, there it is... right above the doctrine that explains why he never rode a bicycle, “

Jhn 4:1 ¶ When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John,

Jhn 4:2 (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)

Jhn 4:3 He left Judaea, and departed again into Galilee.

[pjr12345]

Perhaps your John 3:22 reference is where they were baptized. We just don’t know.

BTW, I make the “special exceptions” argument, but never said I agree with it! The argument following it is, IMHO, more compelling. Either way, the thief is not a good example for the “faith only” crowd to use.

[Ruy Dias de Bivar]

***He then told us that the Christ would “baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire”. A prophecy fulfilled on the day of Pentecost.****

And also when Peter went to Cornelius, it came down Before they were baptized.

Act 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as [he did] unto us;

Wen have unsaved men received the Holy Spirit in this Christian age?

[pjr12345]

Oohh, sneaky, sneaky!

Thanks for the lesson!

[Ruy Dias de Bivar]

***My father once told me that the one talking the loudest in a discussion is probably wrong.***

In a preacher’s notes there was this margin note...”Weak point. Pound pulpit.”

[Ruy Dias de Bivar]

***God cannot do “anything”. There are certain limitations that are part of the definition of God, and there are certain restrictions He has placed upon Himself. ***

Isa 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I [am] God, and [there is] none else; [I am] God, and [there is] none like me,

Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times [the things] that are not [yet] done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

[pjr12345]

in this Christian age

This qualifier attempts to knock out my references in the OT. However, because God did this (OT or not), He therefore can do this. Unless you can cite a passage where He restricted Himself from ever doing it again, it is reasonable to assume He can still do this. Therefore, the OT references are valid. They show that the Spirit of God can, in fact, work through those outside His fold. There is no reason to believe this has changed.

[Ruy Dias de Bivar]

***This qualifier attempts to knock out my references in the OT. ***

In your religion the OT doesn’t count.

2Ch 7:6 And the priests waited on their offices: the Levites also with instruments of musick of the LORD, which David the king had made to praise the LORD, because his mercy [endureth] for ever, when David praised by their ministry; and the priests sounded trumpets before them, and all Israel stood.

Psa 150:3 Praise him with the sound of the trumpet: praise him with the psaltery and harp.

Psa 150:4 Praise him with the timbrel and dance: praise him with stringed instruments and organs.

Psa 150:5 Praise him upon the loud cymbals: praise him upon the high sounding cymbals.

Psa 150:6 Let every thing that hath breath praise the LORD. Praise ye the LORD.