Protestants and the rosary

Paternosters Blogspot ^ | February 26, 2007 | Chris Laning

[Frank Sheed]

I grew up Protestant in the Northeastern U.S., in an area with many Irish and Italian families, so most of my playmates when I was in elementary school were Catholic. This was somewhat (ahem!) before Vatican II, and both Protestant and Catholic kids were taught by their parents (and sometimes even in Sunday School) to regard the other with suspicion, if not downright hostility. My Catholic playmates, for instance, said they were told they would spend eternity in Hell if they (literally!) so much as set foot inside a Protestant church building.

Boy, have things changed. While there are still plenty of Protestants who believe the Roman church is the Scarlet Woman of Babylon, for the most part Catholics and Protestants now acknowledge each other as fellow Christians, are often fairly relaxed about attending each other's worship services, and I suspect that informal, unofficial sharing of Communion is more common than the authorities on both sides would like to think. There are still plenty of incompatibilities (women priests, to name one) but I don't see that degree of almost superstitious mistrust of the "other" any more.

The status of the Virgin Mary is a point of difference between Catholics and Protestants, of course, and that's one of the reasons Protestants tend to be rather wary of the rosary. Unfortunately, I think people brought up Catholic often demonstrate how little they understand about their "separated brethren" when they blithely suggest that Protestants can pray the rosary too.



There are four main points I can think of about the rosary that give many Protestants problems. Briefly they are (from the Protestant point of view):
(1) What about Jesus's prohibition of "vain repetitions" in prayer?
(2) Does the Rosary give Mary too much honor?
(3) Do saints actually hear the prayers of living people?
(4) Is it legitimate to ask saints for favor?

I should make it clear here that when I say "Protestants" in this discussion, I am not including modern Anglicans or Episcopalians. There are certainly Anglicans who do say the rosary, either in the same form common to Roman Catholics or some other form, such as the modern Anglican rosary (which I still want to write about sometime). But what Americans usually call "mainstream" Protestants (Presbyterians, Methodists, etc.), and essentially all of the more evangelical and conservative Protestants, are generally opposed to the rosary as a Roman practice, and that's who I'm referring to here.

As I've said, Catholics do sometimes cheerfully assert that Protestants, too, can "honor" the Virgin Mary and pray the rosary. But I've noticed that somehow, all the Catholic stories that circulate about Protestants praying the rosary tend to end with the story's Protestant becoming a Catholic. If those are the only stories you ever hear, the (inadvertent) message is "If you start praying the rosay, you'll become Catholic" -- as though the rosary were the first step down a slippery slope!

I noticed this on Rosary Workshop's "Why pray the rosary?" page and mentioned it to the website's owner, Margot Carter-Blair -- who shared my amusement, once I'd pointed it out. Margot is now looking for some good stories about Protestants praying the rosary who stay Protestant.

Hmmm. Looks like this is the start of another series of articles....



The first challenge Protestants frequently offer is Matthew chapter 6, verse 7, where Jesus says (in the original King James 1611 spelling): "But when yee pray, use not vaine repetitions, as the heathen doe. For they thinke that they shall be heard for their much speaking."

This verse has had various English translations. Wycliffe's version from around 1400 says: "But in preiyng nyle yee speke myche, as hethene men doon, for thei gessen that thei ben herd in her myche speche." ("But in praying, nil [do not] ye speak much, as heathen men do, for they think that they are heard in their much speech.")

The Bishop's Bible (1568) says, amusingly, "But when ye pray, babble not much, as the heathen do. For they thynke that they shalbe heard, for theyr much bablinges sake."

One modern version puts it: "And in praying do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do; for they think that they will be heard for their many words." In all the versions the next verse says "Therefore be not lyke them, for your father knoweth, what thynges ye haue nede of, before ye aske of hym."

The King James version, however, is so entrenched in the English language that "vain repetitions" is the actual phrase the debate tends to focus on. Protestants generally assert that any repetition of the same prayer over and over must be "vain" by definition, since God really only needs to be asked once, and repeating the same words doesn't add anything.

The usual (rather feeble) Catholic defense is to argue that Christ didn't mean to prohibit all repetition but only vain repetition -- which is a very incomplete answer, since it leaves open the question of how you tell whether it's vain or not.

I think there's a point here, though: saying the same thing over and over doesn't necessarily mean it's less sincere. Parents and children, husbands and wives tell each other "I love you" over and over, and it doesn't seem to mean any less to them for being repeated.

Protestants generally don't see that their own argument isn't completely consistent. There may be no particular virtue in repeating the same prayer over again, but Protestants will cheerfully pray the "Our Father..." weekly and daily throughout their lives anyway. Many Protestants are taught that "true" prayer is spontaneous and from the heart, expressed in one's own words or wordless desires -- but if that were literally followed at all times, we'd all be praying like Quakers, who only pray as they feel "inspired" to do so. But in fact, most Protestant worship services do include standard, pre-written prayers in which everyone is expected to join. I was brought up, for instance, saying one that begins "Almighty and merciful Father, we have erred and strayed from thy ways like lost sheep...." every Sunday without fail.

I think both sides would admit that the idea of saying a prayer 10 or 100 or some other "round number" of times is something humans have dreamed up for our own satisfaction, not something God particularly cares about. (100 is only a round number if you're using a base-10 number system, anyway!) So perhaps the question that needs to be addressed is whether or not it's a good thing to allow our human preferences for certain numbers to affect our prayers this way. I can certainly see that reasonable adults could have different opinions on this.

to be continued

posted by Chris at 11:04 AM  

[ears_to_hear]

I asked a serious question based on your comment about a non Catholic praying the rosary in labor. Does Mary open and close the womb? Do Catholics pray to her to be pregnant? To have a quick and safe delivery?

[Suzy Quzy]

It was a DISGUSTING remark and you KNOW it. NEVER write me again.

[ears_to_hear]

Do I have to shout? GOD IS WITH US. THE SAINTS AND ANGELS ARE WITH GOD AND SO THEY ARE WITH US TOO.

How do you know this? What is the source of your knowledge?

Are they omnipresent?

[GoLightly]

First of all my theology can't be stated in a sentence and that really makes it hard to reply to a limited view of God. We pray to know God's will but we also pray for others and ourselves.

That's what I was looking for, we also pray for others & ourselves. What do you think praying for others does *to* us?

I already understand & knew the info in the rest of your post.

[ears_to_hear]

He is our Father and has told us to come to Him. He is not only our Father, he is our Daddy, and I don't know about you but I asked my earthly father for things, I just expected him to love me and take care of me because that's how it already was. I believe it even more for God!

He is not the Father of all men. He is only the father of the saved, that are the adopted sons of God.

The fatherhood of God to all men is a false teaching that comes from the pit of hell

[ears_to_hear]

God Blesses the saved and the unsaved according to His will.

David asked why the heathen prospers, a question we might ask today :)

[ears_to_hear]

I prefer scripture to a Pope.

Do you have a scripture that shows the pattern of praying to another to help one mediate on God ?

[ears_to_hear]

Supernatural does not always mean it is from God, there is another supernatural force.

[GoLightly]

I checked wiki & it said the term berliner for donut is regional, outside of Berlin, so his gaffe went unnoticed by his audience in Berlin.

[LordBridey]

I prefer scripture to a Pope.

I know that.

Do you have a scripture that shows the pattern of praying to another to help one mediate on God ?

Can't help ya. I've pointed in the direction you need to go.

[ears_to_hear]

It was only “disgusting “ because you know who opens the womb .. and you took the glory from HIM with your comment

[tiki]

Some people are seriously deranged by anger and hatred and some people and their views become an abomination to those who live in love. May God change their heart, and TRULY let them see Him.

[Suzy Quzy]

You are SICK and you need help.

[ears_to_hear]

Can't help ya. I've pointed in the direction you need to go.

So you have a spiritual practice you can not prove by the word of God? Doesn't that give you any pause?

[tiki]

Are you?

[ears_to_hear]

You are SICK and you need help.

For the Lord had fast closed up all the wombs of the house of Abimelech, because of Sarah, Abraham's wife" (Gen. 20:17-18).

"When the Lord saw that Leah was hated, He opened her womb...And Leah conceived, and bare a son" (Gen. 29:31-32).

"Give me children, or else I die. And Jacob's anger was kindled against Rachel: and he said, Am I God's stead, who hath withheld from thee the fruit of the womb?" (Gen. 30:1-2).

"God hearkened unto Leah, and she conceived" (Gen. 30:17).

"God remembered Rachel, and God hearkened to her, and opened her womb" (Gen. 30:22). ,

Of the parents of John the Baptist
And they had no child, because that Elisabeth was barren, and they both were now well stricken in years...But the angel said unto him...Zacharias...thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear the a son, and thou shalt call his name John" (Lk. 1:7, 13).

Glory to God that opens the womb and causes life to grow !

All praise to God that in His wisdom closes a womb for His purpose.

All life is subject to God, not Mary

[ears_to_hear]

Tiki it is ok if that is a question you can not honestly answer and still hold your belief

[Frank Sheed]

Yes, I am a Fourth Degree Knight but “YOPIOS” has nothing to do with the Catholic Church or with the Knights of Columbus! It is not a secret code word or anything (unless I am in the dark myself!).

I first saw it on a knock-off of a “Cheerios” box with Martin Luther on the front with the initials YOPIOS spelled out. In small font, the letters stand for “Your Own Personal Interpretation of Scripture.” It is a gif image and Petronski is fond of using it.

Needless to say, it raises the hackles of some parties when it is posted. The term “YOPIOS” is imagined by some to concede total ignorance of Scripture by Catholics (although we hear and read more Scripture daily than many Protestants will concede). The term YOPIOS refers to the independent authority of biblical interpretation be it personal, what your Pastor says, or whatever. The Church has guidelines in the Catechism which lay out the way Scripture is and always has been interpreted by the Church. Fr. John Corapi is fond of going over them in his retreats and so on.

F

[Frank Sheed]

“Ich bin ein Berliner” mit ein umlaude!