Posted on 06/10/2007 4:48:46 AM PDT by markomalley
Since the priest clearly is NOT a changling, then perhaps he is a Vulcan in the process of performing a “mind-meld”. If this were the case, the “placemarker” concept can hold true, and the Star Trek theory still remains valid.
Sky King, next time you’re at mass, would you take a close look at the priest’s ears? If they’re not obviously pointy, then see if you can tell if they’ve been surgically altered.
A heretic is one who holds doctrinal differences with the RCC. Ergo, I am the heretic.
Attack my faith all you wish, just don’t make it personal. Lampoon it, poke fun at it, just don’t call me names (other than heretic, as it describes a doctrinal position).
I’ve enjoyed our discussion today. However, apparently this thread has been taken over, thus minimizing any opportunity for further discussion.
I look forward to the day when there are more adults like yourself who enjoy actual discussion.
God bless.
There is one sacrifice of the Mass, the same sacrifice given at Calvary. From the Catechism of The Catholic Church
1366 The Eucharist is thus a sacrifice because it re-presents (makes present) the sacrifice of the cross, because it is its memorial and because it applies its fruit:
[Christ], our Lord and God, was once and for all to offer himself to God the Father by his death on the altar of the cross, to accomplish there an everlasting redemption. But because his priesthood was not to end with his death, at the Last Supper “on the night when he was betrayed,” [he wanted] to leave to his beloved spouse the Church a visible sacrifice (as the nature of man demands) by which the bloody sacrifice which he was to accomplish once for all on the cross would be re-presented, its memory perpetuated until the end of the world, and its salutary power be applied to the forgiveness of the sins we daily commit.187
1367 The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice: “The victim is one and the same: the same now offers through the ministry of priests, who then offered himself on the cross; only the manner of offering is different.” “In this divine sacrifice which is celebrated in the Mass, the same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross is contained and is offered in an unbloody manner.”188
‘
From Mediator Dei
“Now the Apostle of the Gentiles proclaims the copious plenitude and the perfection of the sacrifice of the cross, when he says that Christ by one oblation has perfected for ever them that are sanctified.[72] For the merits of this sacrifice, since they are altogether boundless and immeasurable, know no limits; for they are meant for all men of every time and place. This follows from the fact that in this sacrifice the God-Man is the priest and victim; that His immolation was entirely perfect, as was His obedience to the will of His eternal Father; and also that He suffered death as the Head of the human race: “See how we were bought: Christ hangs upon the cross, see at what a price He makes His purchase . . . He sheds His blood, He buys with His blood, He buys with the blood of the Spotless Lamb, He buys with the blood of God’s only Son. He who buys is Christ; the price is His blood; the possession bought is the world.”[73]
This purchase, however, does not immediately have its full effect; since Christ, after redeeming the world at the lavish cost of His own blood, still must come into complete possession of the souls of men. Wherefore, that the redemption and salvation of each person and of future generations unto the end of time may be effectively accomplished, and be acceptable to God, it is necessary that-men should individually come into vital contact with the sacrifice of the cross, so that the merits, which flow from it, should be imparted to them. In a certain sense it can be said that on Calvary Christ built a font of purification and salvation which He filled with the blood He shed; but if men do not bathe in it and there wash away the stains of their iniquities, they can never be purified and saved.”
I hope you can see by these writings that the Church does not teach that Christ is resacrificed. But that His sacrifice is made present to us.
Say you do not believe that Christ is truly present as the Church teaches or say that you do not believe that the Priest acts as alter Christi as we believe. Say you don’t believe that there are 7 sacraments. With all the points of disagreement between Catholics and non Catholics there should be no need to debate assumed dogma rather than actual.
One of the best things about this forum is that it can be a great jumping off place to learn about so many things.
Take, for instance, your homepage which includes the beautiful, heartbreaking poem, "High Flight." I had no idea it was written by a 19-year-old pilot in WWII just before his death in flight. I read up on the young author and learned he was born in Shanghai. I figured he was probably the son of a missionary, and sure enough, he was. From a couple websites...
"During the Battle of Britain, many Americans crossed the border into Canada to enlist with the Royal Canadian Air Force ... they knowingly broke the law in order to fight Hitler's Germany. (American) John Gillespie Magee, Jr., born in Shanghai, China, in 1922. When Magee was just 18 years old, he entered flight training and was sent to England, on 30 June 1941. He flew the Spitfire being promoted to the rank of Pilot Officer. German bombers were crossing the English Channel regularly to attack Britain's cities and factories. On September 3, 1941, Magee flew a Spitfire V test flight which inspired him to write his poem. That same day he wrote a letter to his parents which included this now famous poem. Three months later, on December 11, 1941 (three days after the US entered the war and four days after Pearl Harbor), John Gillespie Magee, Jr., was killed. He was just 19 years old. John Gillespie Magee, Jr. is buried at Scopwick, Lincolnshire, in a churchyard cemetery..." "Magee was born on June 9, 1922 in Shanghai, China, the eldest of four sons to missionaries John Gillespie Magee Sr. and Faith Emmeline Backhouse. Magee Sr. was an American from a very well-to-do Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania family. Disregarding his family's wealth and influence, he chose to become an Episcopalian minister and was sent to China. There he met and married John Jr.'s mother, an English missionary..." Special Note for "High Flight":
So thank you for this opportunity to learn something of true valor and God's grace.
Thank you. I take it the anwsers to my questions are as follows(please correct me if I get any of these wrong-I don’t want to put words in your mouth).
Dr., is this(the belief that “the perpetual offering of the mass blasphemes the word and will of God”) a common Protestant belief?-yes
Do Masses offered by other Churches such as the Orthodox and Oriental Christians blaspheme the word and will of God?
-yes, if they are considered as some sort of sacrifice
Or is there some difference in the Catholic(Latin rite) Mass that makes it alone blasphemous in your view?-no
Freegards
1 Cor 11:23-29 –“For I received from the Lord what I also handed on to you, that the Lord Jesus, on the night he was handed over, took bread, and, after he had given thanks, broke it and said, "This is my body that is for you. Do this in remembrance of me." In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me." For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the death of the Lord until he comes.
FWIW, you might notice that the bread is passed (broken) before the meal and the wine is passed after the meal. Hardly the procedure you would follow if the bread and wine were transformed into Jesus's body and blood, but more likely a part of a communal meal in which those gathered were memorializing our Saviour's sacrifice. If the substances were truly transformed they would be consumed immediately, not just left sitting on the table.
Thank you for posting those sources. While you may be technically correct that the Church does not teach a re-sacrifice it does teach that the first sacrifice was not enough for a complete remission of sins and that men must continually return to the perpetual “font” of blood to receive forgiveness. This is the essence of the disagreement, and what many Protestant believe is that through faith the one time sacrifice is perpetually efficacious.
Perhaps you should ask folks to criticize what is currently taught, as it is apparent that RCC teachings morph across time.
“Once for all”
Heat. Kitchen.
See numbers 12 & 13
http://www.jewfaq.org/holidaya.htm
Indeed it was. But the events in John 6 happened quite a bit before that time. My point is that I'm not at all convincd that somebody would make the connection...unless their eyes had been enlightened by the Holy Spirit.
This purchase, however, does not immediately have its full effect; since Christ, after redeeming the world at the lavish cost of His own blood, still must come into complete possession of the souls of men...
Ah, and here the RCC goes astray. The sacrifice of Christ upon the cross to atone for the sins of His flock has already been offered and accepted. The debt has been paid.
"It is finished." Christ has died and been resurrected to acquit all believers of their sins.
Read Hebrews 10. A perpetual offering of the mass is error. And there is nothing in Scripture about any "lag time" in our justification.
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus." -- Romans 3:21-26"But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Approach it this way. If God has already forgiven you your sins because Christ paid the penalty for every one of them, what power do other men and magisteriums hold over you?
Answer: none.
But if some hierarchy says only that institution can dispense God's grace, can dole out God's mercy, can actually forgive your sins which still reside in you as unforgiven, then who and what hold power over you?
Answer: other men.
Think *any* of us come to God without having our eyes opened by the Holy Spirit?
“Prudence is that virtue by which we discern what is proper to be done under the various circumstances of time and place.”
— John Milton
“And since the quarrel
Will bear no color for the thing he is,
Fashion it thus: that what he is, augmented,
Would run to these and these extremities;
And therefore think him as a serpent’s egg,
Which, hatched, would as his kind grow mischievous,
And kill him in the shell.”
— William Shakespeare, Julius Caesar
Corpus Christi ping!
You makin fun of my vocabulary? LOL Placemarker got the idea across, did it not?
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