Our Mormon Brothers?

Reformed Evangelist ^ | May 14th, 2007 | Jeff Fuller

[Saundra Duffy]

The “Christus”:

http://www.panoramio.com/photo/597525

[D-fendr]

I haven’t asked anyone to break any vow. I’ve pointed out problems in discussing comparative religion when some teachings are secret. I’ve asked questions to clarify what it is we’re discussing that comprises what must be kept secret. And I’ve tried to do so with courtesy and respect.

[MarkBsnr]

On the other hand, I might want to select the next Car of the Year. I don’t belong to JD Power, so it isn’t going to happen for me. You’re not Catholic, so participating in the selection of the Pope isn’t going to happen for you either.

Didn’t Smith have a number of revelations? I read that there were 4 (or more) by the angel Moroni, in which he first revealed the existence of the plates, then he told Smith to wait before getting them, then he told him when to get them, then finally took them back. Question: did the Pearl of Great Price come from the plate?

Then, several other messengers came bearing the keys - priestly powers and consecrations, followed by John the Baptist, then Peter, James and John, and by 1836, Elijah, Moses and Jesus Christ had appeared. That’s quite a procession.

I didn’t mean that the Urim and Thummim were removed - I meant the plates. I tried to google up a picture of the Urim and Thummin and Google was not my friend. Do you have a link to pictures?

[D-fendr]

Oops, meant my last post to be in reply to yours.

[Elsie]

To you it seems this is a LDS privilege but to the LDS it is a sacred covenant from the Lord!

 

I think the two of you are overlooking your need to know is in conflict with a commandment that the Lord gave his Children and you are asking us to break our vows for your self satisfying pleasure.

 

 

 If so, then it is WRITTEN DOWN somewhere.

Show us, and the world, just WHERE it is!

 

 

Otherwise, you are merely relying on 'a tradition' of the LDS organization that HAS NO BASIS IN SCRIPTURE!!!

[Elsie]

Good morning! Say, I don’t get it. If they think our faith is a bunch of hooey (which they do), why do they care what goes on in our Temples?

We don't.

We just wonder WHY none of you in thread are able to point to your Scriptures to show WHERE you get AUTHORITY to do them.

[Elsie]

And I’ve tried to do so with courtesy and respect.

And we decline with 'courtesy and respect'.

What's YOUR problem??

--MormonDude

[restornu]

You as a nature man would do expediently ignored that which is written down somewhere!

****

Matt 7
6 ¶ Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

Prov. 23:
9 Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words.

Matt. 15: 26 (
26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children’s bread, and to cast it to dogs.

D&C 6: 12
12 Make not thy gift known unto any save it be those who are of thy faith. Trifle not with sacred things.

D&C 10: 37 (36-37)
37 But as you cannot always judge the righteous, or as you cannot always tell the wicked from the righteous, therefore I say unto you, hold your peace until I shall see fit to make all things known unto the world concerning the matter.

D&C 41:
6 For it is not meet that the things which belong to the children of the kingdom should be given to them that are not worthy, or to dogs, or the pearls to be cast before swine.

[restornu]

We just wonder WHY none of you in thread are able to point to your Scriptures to show WHERE you get AUTHORITY to do them.

13 If you have previously received your temple endowment:

Do you keep the covenants that you made in the temple?

Do you wear the garment both night and day as instructed in the endowment and in accordance with the covenant you made in the temple?

[restornu]

If so, then it is WRITTEN DOWN somewhere.

Show us, and the world, just WHERE it is!

Otherwise, you are merely relying on 'a tradition' of the LDS organization that HAS NO BASIS IN SCRIPTURE!!!

When you do someday meet the Lord and stand before his judgment bar, it will be interesting to watch you explain why you always delighted to play devil advocate on earth!

As LDS are council not do anything like it for the prince of this world hath nothing in me!

For it is not of the Lord as the Lord said in

John 14
30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

D&C 59
6 Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. Thou shalt not steal; neither commit adultery, nor kill, nor do anything like unto it.

which would include playing devil advocate.

[alexander_busek]

>>In an attempt to continue the analogy, I have to suggest, that no one is going to know if any of the doctors or medicines really worked...until they are dead. So what does it really matter which doctor they visit or which medicine they take?<<

Assuming that two courses of medical treatment were equally ineffective in prolonging my life, I would nonetheless prefer to take that treatment with the fewest negative side-effects.

By the same token: Given a choice between two (equally false) religions, I would choose the one which allowed me to live my life with as little interference as possible. So even though I view both Islamic Fundamentalism and Pastafarianism as utter bilgewater, I would rather not join a faith that dictated that I strive to don a suicide belt and walk into a crowded marketplace.

[stuartcr]

How do you know if a religion is false or not?

Interference from what?

Why would you need a religion at all?

[alexander_busek]

>>How do you know if a religion is false or not?<<

Because ALL religions are false (in my opinion).

>>Interference from what?<<

Interference from religious dicta (e.g. dietary prohibitions, ritual proscriptions, etc.), preventing me from living a pleasant life.

>>Why would you need a religion at all?<<

I WOULDN’T. But I was commenting on someone’s assertion that it wouldn’t matter WHICH religion one chooses, since one wouldn’t know anyway which one was “correct” until after death. My counter-assertion is that it DOES matter.

[stuartcr]

I agree somewhat, in that I just do not know if any of the religions are false or not, although I do believe that they are all man-made.

I understand now why you believe that it does matter. Thanks

[Elsie]

Matt 7 6 ¶ Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

Or as CORRECTED by JS:

Matt 7 6 ¶ Give not that which is TRADITION unto the GENTILES, neither cast ye your NON-AUTHORITY before INVESTIGATORS, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you because they KNOW that these things ye do are NOT COMMANDED anywhere in your 'scriptures'.

[Elsie]

Do you keep the covenants that you made in the temple?

You mean the ones that YOU do that have NO written authority??

[Elsie]

When you do someday meet the Lord and stand before his judgment bar, it will be interesting to watch you explain why you always delighted to play devil advocate on earth!

Sorry Resty; but I'll take my chances!

KJV Acts 17:11
These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

YOUR 'scriptures' have been searched, and NO authority to do the temple rites have been found.

[restornu]

whatever that is your bed!

[sevenbak]

Thanks, but still haven’t started, I’ve been swamped. I have yet to see the #5 movie... Friday I hope.

[DelphiUser]

I understand your perspective. I've tried to stick to the point: secret rites prohibit discussion of comparative religious topics. If that's unavoidable in LDS then so be it.

I have, I think figured our why, you think rites = Doctrine so if one is secret, the other is too, in this case at least that's just not so.

Can you help me out with this part of our discussion?

I'll try.

What exactly are we talking about that is a secret rite? You said baptism, Eucharist, etc are not secret, so what is it exactly we are talking about here?

Baptism for the Dead, The endowment and sealings for all time and eternity.

Is the secret part in the Ordinances and Covenants? These seem to be spelled out in the manual - are they basically the same only with different presentation and wording?

The Sacred part is in the Ordinance, and the things they teach (non-doctrinal things that are just rites) (does it really matter to you which side of the isle we walk down during our ceremonies, or if we high five or low five when we meet a "Brother"?)

Or, alternatively, is the secret part found here: {snip}

Nope, Mormons are pretty open about our views about the diefication of man, that's in the D&C, and the book of Abraham, like I said.

You say: all this is in the D&C and the book of Abraham, so go and read them if you want to know what we do in the temple.

... but preface it with:

We covenant with God not to reveal the sacred things he teaches us there outside the temple..

Which, I hope you can imagine confuses me quite a bit.

Why? There are things taught in the temple that are non doctrinal, that are not available outside, the way the doctrine is taught in the temple is not to spoken outside, however, all the doctrines are in the D&C and the book of Abraham, so if someone wants to discuss it, we can go there and talk about the doctrines. I personally went through the temple for the first time and went What's the big deal? I learned all this already just from the scriptures.

So pardon me, what's confusing?

So, if you could clarify for me what exactly the nature of the secret rite is.

So if I could just break my vows please? No, sorry, won't do that, or is that what you were asking?

By this I mean what's it called, is it like a church service for members only?

There is a personal part (I mean individual) called washing and anointing, then there is an Endowment which is an instructional part, with covenants with God to keep his commandments. There is also a Sealing to bind families together through the eternities

Is it a regular rite?

Define a regular rite.

Who presides?

A temple worker called from a local congregation, he is called "The Officiator"

Is it a group meeting.

A Baptisms, yes, in a line getting baptized for a list of names
B Washings and annointings, no individual
C Endowment yes group meeting
D Sealings Live yes family and friends can be invited if they have temple recommends For the dead usually just those participating

Is what must be kept secret comprised of special teachings by a church leader or a ritual that is repeated? Is this a one time initiation, learning or an ongoing thing.

You guys seem to have a problem with the word sacred, secret is not the right word and that may be where some of the misunderstanding is coming from, what goes on in the temple is sacred, not just secret.

It's the same teachings every time.

We are encouraged in the strongest terms to return to the temple on the behalf of the dead to repeat the ceremony, it helps us to refresh it, and the dead need to have it performed for them by a mortal.