Pope expands use of Latin liturgy (Albany Diocese claims "OVERTURE TO SCHISMATICS")

The Evangelist ^ | July 12, 2007 | Kate Blain

[Tax-chick]

The diocese does not have enough priests trained in Latin or familiar with the Missal of John XXIII “to offer beyond what we currently have,” he said.

I'm puzzled that various sources keep mentioning this as if it's a real obstacle. I don't have nearly as much education as a priest, but I've done choir performances and acted in plays in foreign languages.

Aren't they familiar with the corporate training industry? Send everyone a training video, or start up an on-line training program. How hard can it be to learn 20 minutes or so of prayers, especially when you have a book to read?

[NYer]

“I believe that the Masses currently being celebrated at St. Patrick’s and at Holy Cross certainly respond to the needs of those who seek this particular Mass,” he said.

That statement says it all.

Bishop Saltarelli, as good as he has been on the pro-life and other issues, is deaf to the pastoral needs of Catholics who are attached to the "extraordinary use."

Be patient! Give it time! Nothing will radically change overnight. Any movement towards the TLM will be gradual and will come only if its adherents flourish and grow. My pastor, as you already know, is bi-ritual. He reads and speaks fluent Latin. I asked him if he would be willing to say the TLM. Surprisingly, he said "yes". However, intellectually, he feels that now that the Latin Mass has been liberated, after the initial flurry of interest, the demand for it will shrink. He commented that in today's world, most people are pressed for time. Once they 'discover' that the TLM is 90 minutes in length, they will return to the NO, simply out of convenience. Essentially, what he is saying, is that the majority prefer an abbreviated Mass to one that extends past 1 hour. We hear this complaint from parishioners in the Maronite Church. They want the music to be 'perkier' (i.e. faster) so they can leave sooner. Some even prefer to attend their local RC Church because the NO Mass is quicker.

This is not a reflection on the priest; it is a sad commentary on where the hearts and minds of many Catholics reside.

[netmilsmom]

Pitifully, this will be the excuse used over and over.
“We put in a TLM and look, only 100 people keep coming.”

Well in our area, the TLM is at 11am Sundays in an area where the Drug Dealers are up early to strip your car. Right where I-94 and I-75 meet. I’m not putting my life, my kids or property in danger to go to a TLM. He didn’t even put it into our “newly renovated” Cathedral, which is in a much safer neighborhood.

They can’t stop priests from celebrating, but don’t have to provide the training or venue. We better have a lot of pastors open to this or basically it’s a moot point.

[netmilsmom]

>>Aren’t they familiar with the corporate training industry? Send everyone a training video, or start up an on-line training program. How hard can it be to learn 20 minutes or so of prayers, especially when you have a book to read?<<

Fantastic idea! but the Bishops have to want to do this.

[trisham]

We knew there would be resistance. Thank God for Pope Benedict.

[trisham]

Be patient! Give it time! Nothing will radically change overnight. Any movement towards the TLM will be gradual and will come only if its adherents flourish and grow.

************

Agreed.

[NYer]

I'm puzzled that various sources keep mentioning this as if it's a real obstacle.

Why are you so puzzled? Recall the recent article about the number of seminarians ordained in the Diocese of Rochester - 6, vs that of the combined dioceses of Omaha and (I forget the other) - 65.

This morning, I was invited to breakfast by an RC, a retired priest and his aged brother. (They are natives of this diocese and extremely orthodox). Naturally, the conversation veered off onto the topic of the local ordinary. The brother mentioned that a few years ago, a good friend attended a meeting at one of the diocesan parishes where the retiring priest was to be replaced by a Lay Ecclesial Minister. At that meeting, the friend raised his hand and specifically asked the bishop why he had so few candidates for ordination by comparison to Bishop Bruskewitz whose seminary was overflowing. The response? "We are more selective!" The priest's brother lamented the fact that he had not attended that meeting. He said he would have questioned the bishop's choices that particular year when 3 men were ordained - one with a pony tail down to his waist and another - a divorced Catholic whose marriage was annuled because he was a homosexual.

There is NO puzzlement here in Albany or Rochester or Los Angeles where 65 men were recently ordained to the diaconate, 61 of whom are married. This is a carefully scripted plan put in place decades ago by then Archbishop Jean Jadot. If anyone still has doubts as to the fact that the Holy Spirit guides the Catholic Church, be reassured of that truth. Jadot masterminded a plan by which he appointed very young bishops in the hopes that they would be made Cardinals and eventually use the College to call for Vatican Council III at which time the Church would allow for the ordination of women. This plan enabled them to selectively develop their dioceses as models of the future Catholic Church. Jadot failed to factor in the work of the Holy Spirit in protecting the Church of Jesus Christ.

Drop to your knees and thank God for the work of the Holy Spirit in His Church! You have been spared the ongoing nightmare of those of us who reside in these dioceses, all endure for at least another 5 years.

[maryz]

I'm puzzled that various sources keep mentioning this as if it's a real obstacle.

They apparently want it to appear insurmountable! It's not as if they have to learn to speak Latin or be able to read Cicero or Vergil on sight -- some prayers will have to be memorized, but most will be read. Latin pronunciation is straightforward, the word order of Church Latin is much closer to "subject-verb-object" than that of classical Latin, and at least 80% of the words have English cognates.

As for the more complex "choreography" (as I've seen it referred to), don't summer stock actors routinely learn a new play every two weeks?

[kawaii]

i’d be happy to drop by and very interested to see the liturgy. i’m interested how the liturgy in aramic has progressed over the years. i understand that all the original iturgies (including st basil’s and st john crysolstom’s) come out of the liturgy of st james/liturgy of jerusalem (from what i’ve read at least)

[kawaii]

i think the russians who want a faster mass mostly just show up late...

that said i’ve never seen the TLM... i’d be interested to since I went to catholic school as a kid, and have always found the eastern liturgies much more spiritual... the mass where i went to school was very dry.

[maryz]

Once they 'discover' that the TLM is 90 minutes in length

The solutiont to that is a shorter sermon! ;-)

Seriously, the daily low Mass (no sermon, no repeating the Gospel in English, no announcements) used to take about 25 minutes (20 minutes with a speed demon, 30 minutes with a more "relaxed" priest).

[AnAmericanMother]

Hence my dad’s quip when somebody talked really, really fast — “You should hear him say Mass!”

[narses]

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[NYer]

I went to catholic school as a kid, and have always found the eastern liturgies much more spiritual... the mass where i went to school was very dry.

Thank you! for verbalizing what I have struggled so long to express in meaningful words. Like you, I too grew up with the Latin Mass as a child. My recollection of it was, as you said, "dry". However, at the recommendation of another freeper, I did attend an Indult TLM a few years ago. I even brought along the missal I had used as a child. Nothing had changed! The priest mumbled his prayers in Latin (no microphone), the altar boys gave the responses (on my behalf) and the choir sang mellifluous hymns (also on my behalf). The clacking of rosary beads was audible as the old ladies said their morning prayers.

I am NO fan of the NO Mass but I have always appreciated the opportunity to vocally respond with the Prayers of the Faithful. It is in the Maronite Church that all of this has come together. The Divine Liturgy is a chanted dialogue between the Celebrant and the congregation. Not only is it heady with reverence, it is replete with chanted responses from the congregation. There is no need for a choir ... though some of the larger Maronite Churches do have them. The responses and chants are meant to resound joyfully throughout the entire liturgy, "our" response to our Lord's request to "do this in memory of Me".

Hope you can join us some Sunday!

[NYer]

i’d be happy to drop by and very interested to see the liturgy. i’m interested how the liturgy in aramic has progressed over the years. i understand that all the original iturgies (including st basil’s and st john crysolstom’s) come out of the liturgy of st james/liturgy of jerusalem (from what i’ve read at least)

Indeed, throughout the liturgical year, the Anaphoras of various Apostles are celebrated. At the reqest of the Patriarch, a Synod was convened several years ago, to study, evaluate and plan the implementation of a gradual restoration to the authentic Maronite liturgy.

The Maronite liturgy is very simple and very rich. The prayers which are used display a profound scriptural tradition, expressing innumerable images and motifs from the Old and New Testaments. Many of the prayers are also derived from the writings of ancient Fathers of the East, especially Saint Ephrem (d. 373), who was declared a doctor of the Universal Church by Pope Benedict XV. His many hymns, rich in poetic expression and typologies from the Scriptures, form the basis for many of the prayers still in use today. This contemplative and monastic spirit typifies the Maronite liturgical tradition.

The Divine Liturgy of the Mass traces its roots to Antioch, where “the disciples were first called Christians” (Acts 11:26). St. Peter fled to Antioch when a persecution broke out in Jerusalem, resulting in the martyrdom of St. James (cf. Acts 12). According to tradition, St. Peter founded the Church at Antioch and became its first bishop (cf. Eusebius, History of the Church, III, 36). The early Maronites were the direct descendants of the people who received their faith from the Apostle Peter.

Shortly after the time of the Apostles, while abiding by our Lord’s command, “Do this in memory of me,” a liturgy developed in Antioch which exists today in the Maronite rite. The overall characteristic of this liturgical tradition is a strong Trinitarian expression, coupled with emphasis on Jesus Christ as true God and true Man. The Maronite liturgy also retains certain aspects of the ancient liturgy of the Old Testament. For example, at the Consecration, the priest tips the chalice in the four directions of the compass to symbolize the shedding of Christ’s blood for the entire universe, which recalls the practice of sprinkling the four corners of the altar with the blood of the sacrificial lamb.

From this ancient and rich spirituality, which cultivates a living spirit of adoration for the Eucharist, many saints have been raised up from among the Maronites. In recent times, three outstanding examples of holiness have been proclaimed by the Church as models for all people of our day: Saint Rafka alReyes, Saint Sharbel Makhlouf and St. Nimatullah Al-Hardini .

We are currently in the longest period of the liturgical calendar. This Sunday we take a break to celebrate the Feast of St. Charbel.

---

CHARBEL PRAYER

Father of Truth

(The Last Prayer of Saint Charbel before he died)

 

Father of truth,

Here is your Son,

The sacrifice in which you are well pleased.

Accept him for he died for me.

So through him I shall be pardoned.

Here is the offering.

Take it from my hands

And so I shall be reconciled with you.

Remember not the sins that I have committed

In front of your Majesty.

Here is the blood which flowered on Golgotha

For my salvation and prays for me.

Out of consideration for this,

Accept my supplication.

I have committed many sins

But your mercy is great.

If you put them in the balance,

Your goodness will have more weight

Than the most mighty mountains.

Look not upon my sins,

But rather on what is offered for them,

For the offering and the sacrifice

Are even greater than the offences.

Because I have sinned,

Your beloved bore the nails and the spear.

His sufferings are enough to satisfy you.

By them I shall live.

Glory be to the Father who sent His Son for us.

Adoration be to the Son who has freed us and ensured our salvation.

Blessed be he who by his love has given life to all.

To him be the glory.

 

from the Maronite Liturgy.

[NYer]

The solutiont to that is a shorter sermon! ;-)

Lol ... I'm glad you also posted a winking eye. The sermon is decidedly the highlight of the Mass ... any Mass. That's the last element I would want to see dropped .. but then, I attend Mass on Sunday to worship our Lord and receive His word. :-)

[steve86]

In a long-awaited overture to disaffected and even schismatic Catholic traditionalists

Hey, that's me! The DISAFFECTED CATHOLIC TRADITIONALIST!

disaffected adj Definition: alienated, estranged

[steve86]

Well in our area, the TLM is at 11am Sundays in an area where the Drug Dealers are up early to strip your car.

I wish you could come visit our chapel, which might be in a somewhat safer neighborhood. I'm not saying there's no crime whatsoever, there certainly is, but I know a guy left a newer unlocked jetski and trailer on the street a couple weeks ago and it's still there. It would only take someone a few seconds to hitch it up and be gone. I was thinking it would disappear in under 10 minutes some places, or even be forcibly hijacked from the owner.

This one chapel, where our diocese has its Indult Mass, is where I expect the TLM to continue to be offered, a few times a month. I can't see the TLM being requested by a significant number of members in any of the other larger parishes, as those people interested are mostly already attending. The lack of interest, if I am right, is unfortunate: so many of those who grew up with the new Mass don't know what they're missing. It is possible that a few of the smaller outlying parishes may request their own TLM so the people don't have to drive in. It would be unfortunate, though, if attendance at the main chapel went down because of that.

In an adjoining diocese to ours, the Bishop is known as a rather anti-TLM person and I don't expect too much progress (obedience) there. He will probably continue to stonewall and obstruct attempts to offer a TLM within the diocese. Since there are no Indults, Catholics in that diocese are forced to attend a TLM offered by a sedevacantist group or an independent or the SSPX (which is not sedevacantist).

I am a little discouraged reading excerpts from the Moto Proprio. It appears that TLM Masses can't be offered on a regular basis, unless they are already are, like at our chapel. What kind of progress is this? I have to go back and verify that to make sure it wasn't someone's incorrect interpretation.

[Tax-chick]

the Bishops have to want to do this.

Well, that's the killer point, isn't it? Clearly, many of the Bishops don't, or there wouldn't be an occasion for the Motu Proprio. My own Bishop is a fine gentleman, but for reasons of his own has not approved a Tridentine Mass in the Diocese. I hope there will soon be one, for those who want it.

Myself, if I show up for Mass and it's in Latin (or Vietnamese, Amharic, or Portuguese), just give me a cheat sheet and all be fine.

[Tax-chick]

You have my deep and heartfelt sympathy.