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To: kosta50; Kolokotronis; stfassisi; irishtenor
IT: It’s all because of sin. The Good news is that Jesus takes away our sin. Praise God.

Yes, not only can we say that Christ came as a lion, but in this way we can also so say that He came as a lamb (talk about the lion and the lamb lying down together, huh?) Here is something from +John Chrysostom's Homily XLVI on the Gospel of St. John (a homily which I found of great interest, as it discusses two major points of contention between modern Christians: Free will and the Eucharist):

For wherever they see the Lord’s blood, devils flee, and Angels run together. This blood poured forth washed clean all the world; many wise sayings did the blessed Paul utter concerning it in the Epistle to the Hebrews. This blood cleansed the secret place, and the Holy of Holies. And if the type of it had such great power in the temple of the Hebrews, and in the midst of Egypt, when smeared on the door-posts, much more the reality. This blood sanctified the golden altar; without it the high priest dared not enter into the secret place. This blood consecrated priests, this in types cleansed sins. But if it had such power in the types, if death so shuddered at the shadow, tell me how would it not have dreaded the very reality? This blood is the salvation of our souls, by this the soul is washed, by this is beautiful, by this is inflamed, this causeth our understanding to be more bright than fire, and our soul more beaming than gold; this blood was poured forth, and made heaven accessible.

Kosta: The final chapter 14 of Hosea repeats the same theme repeated throughout the bible: repent and your sins will be forgiven. The fundamental difference, however, between the Old and the New Testaments is how God brings people to repentence. It's like night and day.

It sure seems that way. But maybe that's what the Fathers meant when they talked about the "shadow" of the fullness to come. I don't know. But one thing I find striking: The history of the Church is full of stories of martyrs who, when given the choice between renouncing their faith and facing a horrible death (like the kind we keep reading about in the OT), chose to stand firm and face that death, while continuing to sing hymns to God's glory. Reflecting on such great faith truly and utterly humbles me. Their suffering was Christ's suffering, and His unending life is their unending life, by the great mystery of His grace.

13,069 posted on 01/24/2008 6:56:23 PM PST by Zero Sum (Liberalism: The damage ends up being a thousand times the benefit! (apologies to Rabbi Benny Lau))
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To: Zero Sum; Kolokotronis; stfassisi; irishtenor
It sure seems that way. But maybe that's what the Fathers meant when they talked about the "shadow" of the fullness to come

That's precisely what I am driving at. You see the same phenomenon in the various churches mentioned in +Paul's Epistles, as with various prophets telling Israelites that they need to come back to God; being the "elect" is not something you cannot lose (contrary to what our Reformed friends are saying). They just didn't "get it."

But, in that case, why was God using so many sdifferent approaches before making the ultimate Sacrifice, when He must have known they would fail?

It's like the Big Flood, when God "repented" for having made man because mankind turned out to be so wicked. Hello? Are we surprised? Was God caught off guard? Our reformed friedns will tlel us, oh no, he did it intentionally because He is using sin as an option for His plan.

And what about the Old Covenant, which had to be scrapped for a New One because of Israel's unfaithfulness? It certainly doesn't paint a picture of an all-knowing God, but rather of a trial-and-error, second-guessing "God" waiting on His unruly kids to quiet down. It also doesn't seem to support the Reformed God-is-in-control theology either.

The history of the Church is full of stories of martyrs who, when given the choice between renouncing their faith and facing a horrible death (like the kind we keep reading about in the OT), chose to stand firm and face that death, while continuing to sing hymns to God's glory

Well, that can be explained with Pascal's wager, in short—what do you have to lose? If it is true, your rewards will be great in heaven; if it is not true, you lost nothing.

13,075 posted on 01/24/2008 8:20:25 PM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: Zero Sum; kosta50; Kolokotronis; Forest Keeper
The history of the Church is full of stories of martyrs who, when given the choice between renouncing their faith and facing a horrible death (like the kind we keep reading about in the OT), chose to stand firm and face that death, while continuing to sing hymns to God's glory. Reflecting on such great faith truly and utterly humbles me. Their suffering was Christ's suffering, and His unending life is their unending life, by the great mystery of His grace

Dear Zero,I thank you for writing this!

This is what Faith in Jesus Christ and the Church is. We must be willing to suffer and welcome persecution even until death.

...And this my friend, is a message that the culture of death and this "self fulfillment" world that we live in wants to keep silent.

Here is a few more writings from Blessed Saint John Chrysostom on Eucharist

"When the word says, 'This is My Body,' be convinced of it and believe it, and look at it with the eyes of the mind. For Christ did not give us something tangible, but even in His tangible things all is intellectual. So too with Baptism: the gift is bestowed through what is a tangible thing, water; but what is accomplished is intellectually perceived: the birth and the renewal. If you were incorporeal He would have given you those incorporeal gifts naked; but since the soul is intertwined with the body, He hands over to you in tangible things that which is perceived intellectually. How many now say, 'I wish I could see His shape, His appearance, His garments, His sandals.' Only look! You see Him! You touch Him! You eat Him!"

-"Homilies on the Gospel of Matthew" [82,4] 370 A.D.

"I wish to add something that is plainly awe-inspiring, but do not be astonished or upset. This Sacrifice, no matter who offers it, be it Peter or Paul, is always the same as that which Christ gave His disciples and which priests now offer: The offering of today is in no way inferior to that which Christ offered, because it is not men who sanctify the offering of today; it is the same Christ who sanctified His own. For just as the words which God spoke are the very same as those which the priest now speaks, so too the oblation is the very same."

Source: St. John Chrysostom, "Homilies on the Second Epistle to Timothy," 2,4, c. 397 A.D.

"It is not the power of man which makes what is put before us the Body and Blood of Christ, but the power of Christ Himself who was crucified for us. The priest standing there in the place of Christ says these words but their power and grace are from God. 'This is My Body,' he says, and these words transform what lies before him."

Source: St. John Chrysostom, "Homilies on the Treachery of Judas" 1,6; d. 407 A.D.:

"'The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not communion of the Blood of Christ?' Very trustworthily and awesomely does he say it. For what he is saying is this: 'What is in the cup is that which flowed from His side, and we partake of it.' He called it a cup of blessing because when we hold it in our hands that is how we praise Him in song, wondering and astonished at His indescribable Gift, blessing Him because of His having poured out this very Gift so that we might not remain in error, and not only for His having poured out It out, but also for His sharing It with all of us."

-"Homilies on the First Letter to the Corinthians" [24,1] ca. 392 A.D.

I wish you a Blessed Day!

13,078 posted on 01/25/2008 5:23:26 AM PST by stfassisi ("Above all gifts that Christ gives his beloved is that of overcoming self"St Francis Assisi)
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