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To: Kolokotronis; kosta50
Kosta: Maybe, but why would God bother with tricks He must have foreknown wouldn’t work?

Kolo: I’ve no idea, Kosta mou, no idea, but our ways aren’t God’s ways are they? In any event, it didn’t seem to bother +Athanasius the Great.

It didn't seem to bother +John of Damascus, either. Concerning Providence:

When, therefore, we give heed to these things we ought to be filled with wonder at all the works of Providence, and praise them all, and accept them all without enquiry, even though they are in the eyes of many unjust, because the Providence of God is beyond our ken and comprehension, while our reasonings and actions and the future are revealed to His eyes alone. And by “all” I mean those that are not in our hands: for those that are in our power are outside the sphere of Providence and within that of our Free-will.

13,081 posted on 01/27/2008 12:23:51 AM PST by Zero Sum (Liberalism: The damage ends up being a thousand times the benefit! (apologies to Rabbi Benny Lau))
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To: Zero Sum

I am pleased you are reading +John of Damascus, a true theological giant among the Fathers and a champion of Orthodoxy against the iconoclasts. After he retired from the court of the caliph at Damascus, he entered the monastery of +Sabas outside of Jerusalem, which is still operating.

Troparion - Tone 8

Champion of Orthodoxy, teacher of purity and of true worship,
the enlightener of the universe and the adornment of hierarchs:
all-wise father John, your teachings have gleamed with light upon all things.
Intercede before Christ God to save our souls.

Kontakion - Tone 4

Let us sing praises to John, worthy of great honor,
the composer of hymns, the star and teacher of the Church, the defender of her doctrines:
through the might of the Lord¹s Cross he overcame heretical error
and as a fervent intercessor before God
he entreats that forgiveness of sins may be granted to all.


13,083 posted on 01/27/2008 5:49:57 AM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Zero Sum; Kolokotronis
It didn't seem to bother +John of Damascus, either. Concerning Providence..."we give heed to these things we ought to be filled with wonder at all the works of Providence, and praise them all, and accept them all without enquiry even though they are in the eyes of many unjust, because the Providence of God is beyond our ken and comprehension, while our reasonings and actions and the future are revealed to His eyes alone...

Do we have a choice? It's one thing to accept natural disasters and "fate" as Providence of God, no matter how "unfair" they seem; it's an altogether different thing to accept without inquiry the writings of an ancient biblical author as speaking God's words!

We are mixing apples and oranges here, Zero Sum. We are confusing everything that is not subject to our free will, with the presumption that everything in the Bible is indeed the word of God.

We are making here a giant leap of faith that the individuals who wrote the books that eventually make up different canons are truly and unquestionably inspired, and that whatever seems unfair in the Bible is like questioning the 'fairness' of an earthquake or, indeed, our own mortality!

This is no different than Muslims making a leap of faith that whatever is in the Koran was dictated to Mohammad word-by-word by Allah. What makes our right and their wrong if not a leap of faith? Because we find their writings unjust and cruel and detestable, but things detestable in our Bible, such as dashing babies to pieces, are dismissed because we have decided that they are Providential truth? Where is objective proof of that?

The burden of proof is not on those who doubt extraordinary claims, but rather on those who are making them. So, I am asking you to provide unquestionable proof that everything in the Bible is indeed a Providential word of God, as claimed, and that questioning the fairness or even the veracity of its stories is on the same level as questioning the 'fairness' and veracity of earthquakes or any cataclysmic event we see in the universe.

13,084 posted on 01/27/2008 6:20:24 AM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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