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To: Dr. Eckleburg
What does it matter that heretics mouth error and call it truth?

Because you are using the same gnostic methodology to justify your theological position. If we remain unaware of the *fundamental* causes of the errors of the heretics, then we will not be able to see whether we are heretics as well. For example, if you have spent significant time dialoguing with Mormons about theology, then you know that the appeal to the "burning in the bosom" trumps all your exegetical efforts. The person has fallen into a epistemic pit, and in order to reason with him, you first have to step back from the discussion of the plausibility of Mormonism, to a discussion of the "burning in the bosom" method of discerning truth.

Your constant appeal to "if God gives you ears to hear and eyes to see" is just very same epistemic pit into which the Mormons have fallen. It is a recurrence of Montanistic gnosticism. To see the problems with it, you have to encounter (or become aware of) all the people who make use of this very same method, and yet who come to completely incompatible and radically different conclusions. Once you see that, then you realize that that method is not reliable in itself apart from a more concrete test of truth.

But according to the word of God, the magisterium is riddled with errors.

According to your interpretation of the word of God.

Your present mode of theological reasoning hides from itself the fact that you are interpreting the Scriptures. As long as you remain oblivious to the fact that you are interpreting the Scriptures, you will remain unable to see that you are misinterpreting the Scriptures.

-A8

430 posted on 07/24/2007 6:31:11 AM PDT by adiaireton8 ("There is no greater evil one can suffer than to hate reasonable discourse." - Plato, Phaedo 89d)
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To: adiaireton8; Alamo-Girl; xzins; P-Marlowe; irishtenor; blue-duncan; Frumanchu; Alex Murphy; ...
ME: What does it matter that heretics mouth error and call it truth?

YOU: Because you are using the same gnostic methodology to justify your theological position. If we remain unaware of the *fundamental* causes of the errors of the heretics, then we will not be able to see whether we are heretics as well.

No, a heretic is following a false god. Just because we both walk on two feet does not mean we are going in the same direction.

And no one here is "unaware" of heretical errors. On the contrary, we have God's word specifically showing us right and wrong. And from my reading of the Bible I find the RCC littered with errors which are clearly denounced in Scripture.

In black and white, no less.

If there were no Bible, you would have a smidgeon of a point. Who are Protestants following then? Whose voice are they heeding?

But God did give us His word and show us His will in Scripture. And in that Scripture we are told that the Holy Spirit will guide our understanding of it and in doing so, we will recognize the truth of Christ risen.

And A8, happily I'm here to tell you that this is exactly what has happened in my life and in the lives of those who preach the word to you on this forum. The fruits of our lives are good and plentiful, just as God promised in Scripture.

I don't need more "proof" than that. Sadly, some in the RCC crave more assurance from the wrong sources, from Mary and dead people and trinkets and beads and icons and "other Christs" and various magical incantations which lean towards alchemy.

Thank you, no. Scripture clearly denounces those practices. God says to His sheep -- follow your conscience because it is a gift from me to you. And so it is.

"I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost" -- Romans 9:1

So we have Paul telling us our consciences, our minds and our thoughts and our intentions, are by the work of the Holy Spirit if we are His...

"Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled." -- Titus 1:15

And if we are His and the fruits of the Holy Spirit are in our lives, we need fear no man or reproach...

"for why is my liberty judged of another man's conscience?" -- 1 Corinthians 10:29

And how do we know our consciences are pure?

"How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance." -- Hebrews 9:14-15

So God washes our fallen consciences with the blood of Christ which equips us to worship Him in truth, according to the word of God. And how do we do this? We trust Him.

"Pray for us: for we trust we have a good conscience, in all things willing to live honestly." -- Hebrews 13:18

The RCC fears a man's conscience, instead coralling it with heavy gold chains and fences made with the stumblingblocks of idols.

THE NECESSITY OF REFORMING THE CHURCH II
by John Calvin

"...And again, "Being justified by faith, we have peace with God" (Rom. 5:1); and no longer dread his presence. And he [Paul] intimates that everyone feels in his own experience, that our consciences cannot but be in perpetual disquietude and fluctuation, so long as we look for protection from works, and that we enjoy serene and placid tranquillity then only, when we have recourse to Christ as the only haven of true confidence. We add nothing to Paul's doctrine; but that restless dubiety of conscience, which he regards as absurd, is placed by our opponents among the primary axioms of their faith...

As I have said, we deny not that laws enacted with a view to external policy ought to be carefully obeyed, but in regard to the regulation of the conscience, we hold that there is no legislator but God.

To him alone, then, be reserved this authority, which he claims for himself in many passages of scripture. In this matter, however, were subverted, first, the honor of God, from which it is impious to derogate in any degree; and, secondly, genuine liberty of conscience - a liberty which, as Paul strenuously insists, must not be subjected to the will of men.

As it was, therefore, our duty to deliver the consciences of the faithful from the undue bondage in which they were held, so we have taught that they are free and unfettered by human laws, and that this freedom, which was purchased by the blood of Christ, cannot be infringed. If anyone thinks we are blameable in this, he must attribute the same blame to Christ and his apostles..."


504 posted on 07/24/2007 11:03:09 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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