Posted on 07/29/2007 11:43:02 AM PDT by CatholicTim
I appreciate your effort but none of the verses you lised mention forgiveness of future sins... which is what I asked for.
All you could provide is a subjective interpretation which is held by a tiny minority of all Christians.
Matthew 16 and Matthew 18 are clear that Jesus founded a visible church with a binding authority. The gates of hell will not prevail against His church.
We know from the historical evidence that there are only two candidates... the Eastern Orthodox and the Catholic Church.
I have attended Eastern Orthodox liturgies and they are beautiful. The problem is they lack being in communion with the Seat of Peter. This is why I am Catholic.
Re: Romans 4
The church agrees with every verse in the Bible. The real question relating to Romans 4:5 is how do you define “faith”. Is it only intellectual assent? If it is then you and I are miles apart. However, if our “faith” is formed in charity then there is no disagreement between us. As a said earlier, if you harmonize ALL of Paul’s writings you know that he is talking about much more than mere intellectual assent. The “Joint Declaration on Justification” does a nice job describing the churches view on righteousness, faith and justification. In this document the church lays out a fuller definition of faith that includes “living by faith” not merely “intellectual assent”. I used to “preach” we are “saved by faith alone” too but even I would not have such a narrow definition of “faith”.
Joint Declaration on Justification
10.Paul sets forth the gospel as the power of God for salvation of the person who has fallen under the power of sin, as the message that proclaims that “the righteousness of God is revealed through faith for faith” (Rom 1:16f) and that grants “justification” (Rom 3:21-31). He proclaims Christ as “our righteousness” (1 Cor 1:30), applying to the risen Lord what Jeremiah proclaimed about God himself (Jer 23:6). In Christ’s death and resurrection all dimensions of his saving work have their roots for he is “our Lord, who was put to death for our trespasses and raised for our justification” (Rom 4:25). All human beings are in need of God’s righteousness, “since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” (Rom 3:23; cf. Rom 1:18-3:20; 11:32; Gal 3:22). In Galatians (3:6) and Romans (4:3-9), Paul understands Abraham’s faith (Gen 15:6) as faith in the God who justifies the sinner (Rom 4:5) and calls upon the testimony of the Old Testament to undergird his gospel that this righteousness will be reckoned to all who, like Abraham, trust in God’s promise. “For the righteous will live by faith (Hab 2:4; cf. Gal 3:11; Rom 1:17). In Paul’s letters, God’s righteousness is also God’s power for those who have faith (Rom 1:16f; 2 Cor 5:21). In Christ he makes it our righteousness (2 Cor 5:21). Justification becomes ours through Christ Jesus “whom God put forward as a sacrifice of atonement by his blood, effective through faith” (Rom 3:25; see 3:21-28). “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God - not the result of works” (Eph 2:8f).
11.Justification is the forgiveness of sins (cf. Rom 3:23-25; Acts 13:39; Lk 18:14), liberation from the dominating power of sin and death (Rom 5:12-21) and from the curse of the law (Gal 3:10-14). It is acceptance into communion with God: already now, but then fully in God’s coming kingdom (Rom 5:1f). It unites with Christ and with his death and resurrection (Rom 6:5). It occurs in the reception of the Holy Spirit in baptism and incorporation into the one body (Rom 8:1f, 9f; I Cor 12:12f). All this is from God alone, for Christ’s sake, by grace, through faith in “the gospel of God’s Son” (Rom 1:1-3).
12.The justified live by faith that comes from the Word of Christ (Rom 10:17) and is active through love (Gal 5:6), the fruit of the Spirit (Gal 5:22f). But since the justified are assailed from within and without by powers and desires (Rom 8:35-39; Gal 5:16-21) and fall into sin (1 Jn 1:8,10), they must constantly hear God’s promises anew, confess their sins (1 Jn 1:9), participate in Christ’s body and blood, and be exhorted to live righteously in accord with the will of God. That is why the Apostle says to the justified: “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who is at work in you, enabling you both to will and to work for his good pleasure” (Phil 2:12f). But the good news remains: “there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus” (Rom 8:1), and in whom Christ lives (Gal 2:20). Christ’s “act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all” (Rom 5:18).
How you can suggest these Christians are to work FOR their salvation is a real mystery...They have received the Holy Spirit...They have been sealed with the Holy Spirit...They have been adopted by God...They are the children of God...
And you suggest the Holy Spirit might unseal them and pick up and leave while the Holy Spirit is at work in their members...
But the good news remains: “there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus” (Rom 8:1), and in whom Christ lives (Gal 2:20).
Exactly...And this verse contradicts any notion that a saved Christian has to work for their future salvation...There is no condemnation because there is no sin imputed to those who are in Christ, and Christ in them...
Christ’s “act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all” (Rom 5:18).
No it doesn't...Jesus' death provided (past tense) justification for all...Justification is not salvation...
Oh, I see...You are looking for the actual words, 'Forgiveness of future sins'...
Well, the bible doesn't have that...
But perhaps you could expound on the verses I brought along in those posts...
Not verbatum but at least close would be nice. Please be patient with me. I will respond more in detail this weekend.
I wanted to thank you again for you willing to dialog. I consider you a fellow Christian and I applaud your efforts at evangelization.
I have seen the Holy Spirit working in the lives of many wonderful, faithful Protestants. I hope our conversations remain cordial.
Ephesians Chapter 4
29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ’s sake hath forgiven you.
Please be patient with me as my schedule has been full the last few days. I will have time this weekend to respond in detail.
God bless you.
Free Republic has a Catholic Forum?
Where are the writings of the Apostles about Catholic doctrine? Is it hearsay? Where the Apostles all unanimous in what they taught?
err... “Were”
For a good summary of Catholic theology read the Apostles Creed. Our theology is Christ centered and focused on grace and the call to holiness.
The fundamental differences between Catholic and Protestant theology rests with authority (visible church not invisible), sacraments and the communion of saints. All of these distinctive doctrines are found all over the place when you read the writings of the early church.
One of the earliest writings from the first century is a document called the Didache. This is an early teaching document relating to the practice of Christianity. It talks about the Eucharist and how baptism does not have to be by immersion but also pouring.
There is some variety of opinion among the church fathers. However, the key is to look for consensus and the consensus among them are all aligned with Catholic theology.
These writings can be found online at www.newadvent.org or www.ccel.org (among other websites).
Barnabas [10-70 AD]
Clement, Pope [27-97 AD]
Ignatius of Antioch [50-117 AD]
Hermas [60-120 AD]
Polycarp [69-155 AD]
Aristides the Philosopher [90-150 AD]
Papias [90-140 AD]
Justin Martyr [100-165 AD]
Irenaeus of Lyons [120-180 AD]
Tatian [120-180 AD]
Athenagoras [150-200 AD]
Clement of Alexandria [150-215 AD]
Theophilus [150-200 AD]
Bardesanes [154-222 AD]
Julius Africanus [160-240 AD]
Tertullian [160-240 AD]
Hippolytus [170-236 AD]
Caius [180-240 AD]
Origen [185-254 AD]
Dionysius the Great [190-265 AD]
Cyprian of Carthage [200-270 AD]
Dionysius of Rome [200-268 AD]
Minucius Felix [200-270 AD]
Gregory Thaumaturgus [213-275 AD]
Novatian [220-270 AD]
Victorinus [240-303 AD]
Pamphilus [250-309 AD]
Peter of Alexandria [260-311 AD]
Arnobius [265-315 AD]
Eusebius of Caesarea [265-340 AD]
Alexander of Alexandria [266-326 AD]
Alexander of Lycopolis [280-360 AD]
Aphrahat/Aphraates [280-367 AD]
Lactantius [290-350 AD]
Athanasius, St [296-373 AD]
Commodianus [300-360 AD]
Hilary of Poitiers, St [300-367 AD]
Ephraim the Syrian, St [306-373 AD]
Cyril of Jerusalem, St [315-386 AD]
Gregory Nazianzen, St [325-389 AD]
Gregory of Nyssa [325-386 AD]
Basil the Great, St [329-379 AD]
Ambrose, St [340-397 AD]
Jerome, St [347-420 AD]
John Chrysostom, St [347-407 AD]
Augustine of Hippo, St [354-430 AD]
John Cassian [360-435 AD]
Sulpitius Severus [363-420 AD]
Sozomen [375-447 AD]
Socrates Scholasticus [379-450 AD]
Vincent of Lérins [390-450 AD]
Theodoret [393-457 AD]
Leo the Great, Pope [395-461 AD]
I didn't say that Christinas are to work FOR their salvation. I said that our salvation is not guaranteed and we must persevere. Remember, it is not by "our works that we are justified" but only by the grace of God that we can walk in faith and do good works that perfect our faith.
RE: Romans 4:14-15
From St. Augustine of Hippo [354-430 AD]
On the Grace of Christ, and on Original Sin
Hence, then, it is clear that he acknowledges that grace whereby God points out and reveals to us what we are bound to do; but not that whereby He endows and assists us to act, since the knowledge of the law, unless it be accompanied by the assistance of grace, rather avails for producing the transgression of the commandment. “Where there is no law,” says the apostle, “there is no transgression;” Romans 4:15 and again: “I had not known lust except the law had said, You shall not covet.” Romans 7:7 Therefore so far are the law and grace from being the same thing, that the law is not only unprofitable, but it is absolutely prejudicial, unless grace assists it; and the utility of the law may be shown by this, that it obliges all whom it proves guilty of transgression to betake themselves to grace for deliverance and help to overcome their evil lusts. For it rather commands than assists; it discovers disease, but does not heal it; nay, the malady that is not healed is rather aggravated by it, so that the cure of grace is more earnestly and anxiously sought for, inasmuch as “The letter kills, but the spirit gives life.” 2 Corinthians 3:6 “For if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.” Galatians 3:21 To what extent, however, the law gives assistance, the apostle informs us when he says immediately afterwards: “The Scripture has concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.” Galatians 3:22 Wherefore, says the apostle, “the law was our schoolmaster in Christ Jesus.” Galatians 3:24 Now this very thing is serviceable to proud men, to be more firmly and manifestly “concluded under sin,” so that none may pre-sumptuously endeavour to accomplish their justification by means of free will as if by their own resources; but rather “that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Because by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in His sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets.” Romans 3:19-21 How then manifested without the law, if witnessed by the law? For this very reason the phrase is not, “manifested without the law,” but “the righteousness without the law,” because it is “the righteousness of God;” that is, the righteousness which we have not from the law, but from God,—not the righteousness, indeed, which by reason of His commanding it, causes us fear through our knowledge of it; but rather the righteousness which by reason of His bestowing it, is held fast and maintained by us through our loving it,—”so that he that glories, let him glory in the Lord.” 1 Corinthians 1:31
St. Augustine reinforces Catholic doctrine that “law is not only unprofitable, but it is absolutely prejudicial, unless grace assists it”. Grace gives us the power to persevere in our faith.
Great post! I especially love the line, “while Protestants have been studying the menu, Catholics have been getting the meal.”
I can’t express the deep happiness I derive from being Catholic, but this article did a really good job of it. He also managed to convey the feeling one gets of being connected to something immense and timeless. Once you know the outward signs God sent in the Old Testament are simply here in a different and improved form in the Sacraments, you feel connected to every story in the Bible. What an indescribable gift to see God’s love as a continuum. The burning bush, the separating water, the angels, the manna— all are with me today in the continuing, miraculous signs Christ instituted for His Church and the wonders He works at every Mass. He still gives signs and works wonders! Alleluia!
There is a great book, “Grandmother and the Priests” by Taylor Caldwell that has a chapter detailing the old, uneasy relationship between priests and nuns. It is great!
“It simply defies everything the bible teaches from Genesis to the Apocalypse to think that conversion provides some sort of free pass for future sin. “
That is so true and so insightful! Every story in the Old Testament is about being tested— and right up to the end in the Garden of Gethsemane, Christ tested his Apostles. We must rise to the test on a daily basis to achieve our salvation.
We must take up our cross and follow Him, today— and for as long as that journey lasts. Every step!
It just doesn’t make sense to me that someone who accepts and believes in Jesus as the Messiah but who lives a terrible life day in and day out could be acceptable to God. Belief requires continual action and this article does a good job of clarifying how Catholics feel about that.
Thanks for the reference — I’ll have to look for it!
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Mad Dawg, you are so right.
One Easter my college student daughter came home and attended Mass with me. She ran out of the house in the nick of time, wearing a dress that was terribly low cut, and I was very upset. I decided to say nothing because she had asked to come with me. We arrived and, imagine my chagrin, were seated in the only seats left (the pew right behind the altar that was usually used by the choir). The entire Mass, the congregation was staring at my daughter’s chest and, I’m sure, questioning my skills as a mother.
I kept telling myself, “At least she is here. Maybe she needed to hear what is being said today. Had I said anything, she might not have been able to absorb the Mass.” This year, five years later, she volunteered with her parish’s RCIA program and made everyone rosaries. She also complained about how some of them dress!
With all the sad scandals, I am just thrilled to see twenty-somethings at Mass at all. I send a little prayer their way. They will grow up- and it’s not easy to be a young Catholic these days. Life is a funny journey.
I completely totally love it. (the hussies!)
bumping...
The Nazarene / "Holiness" side of the Protestant family tends to focus intensely upon the subjective, experiential side of the Christian life. This unwittingly programs them to view God, as the father of liberal protestant theology, Friederich Schleiermacher put it, as "a feeling of unconditioned dependence." Salvation is a feeling one has in a rigorously choreographed ritualistic environment, the "revival" and "altar call." For "holiness" folks, sanctification is an intensified feeling of consecration and closeness to God.
If this indeed your conditioning and programming, you will eventually come to yearn for a faith that is more than a feeling, a faith that applies the divine revelation to the world around you as well as the "world" within you. A faith that is erudite, thought-provoking, and demanding of the best that you can bring to it.
The other defining characteristic of the Nazarine / Wesleyan / "holiness" side of our family is an aversion to something called "Calvinism." That's a shame -- the Reformed understanding of Christianity is a complete, rigorous, and historically aware worldview. Those who are tired of a navel view tarted up and bulked up and presented as the sum of the Christian life don't need to swim the Tiber to find a Christian worldview. Calvinism applies God's Word to all of life -- and eschews such spiritual traps as the demonism found around the cult of the BVM.
Calvinist, Catholic, and Orthodox Christians agree on one thing -- God is "more than a feeling." Or, as Karl Bart said in a rare moment of lucidity, "No matter how loudly you shout the word 'MAN' into a well, it will never return the echo 'GOD!'"
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