Posted on 07/30/2007 10:18:00 AM PDT by Alex Murphy
A couple of trouble-making readers (relative, I believe, to the story of how I got saved) have lately been asking my opinion on the question of free will vs. predestination. For some time now I have struggled mightily to ignore their queries; when finally forced by etiquette to acknowledge them, I thoughtfully suggested they upgrade their cable service, or invest in pets. "You can watch Chinese soccer matches!" I tried. "And a dachshund can be so much fun! They look like sausages--with free will!"
But, alas, they weren't distracted.
For some reason, I've never been too interested in trying to suss out the exact relationship between my free will and the idea of God's already knowing my whole life. I once tried to do some reading on the matter, but immediately bumped into words like "determinism," "Calvinism," and "Arminianism."
And that's how I came to purchase our little dachshund, Emanuel Swedenborg.
And now the question has come up again.
Stupid eternal questions of critical theology. Why can't they just ... resolve themselves, already? Do we have to do everything ourselves?
So let me finally solve the whole question of free will vs. predestination, so that I can go back to watching Chinese soccer.
Now then. I am sure I have free will. To prove it, I will now do an imitation of Daffy Duck.
There. I did it. There's no way God could have predicted I would do that.
Ha! I just did an imitation of Daffy Duck imitating The Road Runner!
And--ow. I think I hurt my throat.
But the point is: I decided to do that larynx-traumatizer all by myself. There's no way that in any Book of Life written before time began there's an entry that says: "5:43 a.m. July 25, 2007. San Diego, California. Dork on couch does imitation of Daffy Duck imitating Road Runner."
Forget it. This proves I have free will.
Except I don't want to have free will. Which is to say, I don't want to be able to surprise God. A God so stuck in temporal time that he has to wait to see what will happen next doesn't sound like a very inspiring, very All-Knowing sort of deity. That sounds like ... me watching TV.
So forget that. God knows all. Period. That's not debatable.
So God did know I was going to wrench my poor little throat box!
And yet, he didn't stop me. How ... kind of him.
Okay, so what do we have here?
I think I have free will--but in actually I don't, because God, knowing all, is perfectly aware ahead of time of everything that I'll ever do, say, or think. Moreover, he causes me to do, say, and think everything I do.
Say, you know what I think?
I think I'll take little Emanuel Swedenborg for a walk.
Wait. That would be wrong. That would be me not getting the job done!
Totally unacceptable.
Hmmm.
Okay, here's what I think: When we're outside of God's grace--when we've chosen to be Fallen Independent Types--we have free will, because we've then placed ourselves outside of God's purview. But when we're with God--when we've surrendered ourselves to the reality of God's presence within us--then we don't have free will, because then our will is subsumed by the larger will of God.
Phffft. How is it that Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas, and all those other brainy theologians never thought of that?
Losers.
You know, sometimes I think Preeminent Theologian Types really just keep pretending all of this stuff is so hard, so that they don't have to go out and get real jobs. Clearly, anyone with half a ...
Whoa. Whoa!
Did God know that little Emanuel was going to go wee-wee on the leg of my favorite easy chair??
A wise man once described predestination like a door inscribed “Come All!”.
Once you entered in you’d find the sign: “Welcome Chosen Ones!”.
So here’s his position on the subject (toward the end of the article):
“When we’re outside of God’s grace—when we’ve chosen to be Fallen Independent Types—we have free will, because we’ve then placed ourselves outside of God’s purview. But when we’re with God—when we’ve surrendered ourselves to the reality of God’s presence within us—then we don’t have free will, because then our will is subsumed by the larger will of God.”
That seems to make sense.
How can a mind make such a convoluted syllogism that is so clearly in error?... "I think I have free will--but in actually I don't, because God, knowing all, is perfectly aware ahead of time of everything that I'll ever do, say, or think." Which is not an equivalence, but the writer assumes it is. "Moreover, he causes me to do, say, and think everything I do." And to support the first stupid wording, he offers this further illogic. And people actually take time from their precious lifetime to read this garbage.
So - I take it you’re not a Calvinist?
8^)
We get to make the decision if we will be in Christ or not.
I believe in the Heisenberg Principle ...
God is infallible. God’s actions are infallible. God created Man. Man is thus a product of an infallible force, which then implies that Man cannot err, because he was created by a perfect perfectionist. Even given free will, Man must still be able to make the right choices, because even his thinking mechanism is a product of an infallible force.
If the end of the above doesn’t hold true, then why should the beginning?
When we are outside of the grace of God, we are a slave to sin. When we are restored to the grace of God, we become a slave to God. Which condition is “free will”?
“Free will” does not mean the ability to surprise God. Nor does it mean that our impulses are random; all things have a first cause, and our impulses are not mere byproducts of quantum chaos.
“Free” means living according to one’s own attributes, rather than having them imposed from outside, which is “oppression.” When we are in a state of grace, we do what our reason and conscience demands we must, and our reason and conscience are truth. That, then, is free will. When we are outside of grace, we are in a state of turmoil, desiring on one level to do what we ought to, but lacking the self-control or the awareness to do what is truly fulfilling; we are enslaved to our passions or to ignorance.
When we live, as Paul put it, “under the law,” we have impaired wills and defective reason. When we are saved, we have free will and enlightened reason.
Calvin saw things opposite. He saw “free will” as doing whatever we want, as damned people, as opposed to living as a slave to Christ.
Because your beginning argument is a bit of a straw man.
Your implication that "...Man is thus a product of an infallible force...[therefore] Man cannot err.." - is a product your own line of reasoning...
Hence my tagline... 8^)
Nice tagline, but does your earlier answer imply that God created man with a defect?
IOW neither you nor I know with what standard God created - what he thought was perfect. It is my opinion that God creates at his own whim - without consultation. 8^)
Is an ostrich less perfect a bird because it does not fly? Were man and the angels created less than perfect because God allowed for a free will - one that could even turn against him?
Can I - the pot, say to the potter - "why have you made me this way?".
Great - me too!
I asked this same question as I was struggling with Christianity and God.
The answer for me, came in looking at another of those common Biblical critiques... creationism.
In reading scripture (not to put down Theologians, Philosophers, etc, but if I’m looking for the things of God, I will first of all see what God has to say for himself. Afterwards, I enjoy comparing my thoughts to those of notables throughout history), the crux of the issue was time.
Is God bound by time, or is time merely one of His creations, and He is in essence ‘outside’ of time?
Please look through scripture yourself to consider this idea.
The answer that came to me, was that God is clearly outside time. He not only sees the present and the past, but also knows the future, because He ‘sees’ it. Prophesy, predestination, etc are all offshoots of this.
God prophesies because He knows what WILL happen.
God KNOWS what our choices will be, because he has seen them.
We have been given ‘Free Will’ to choose whether to follow God or not, yet we are also ‘Predestined’ because God knows the choices we will make. Not because He forced us to do them, but before we were born, He knows our future.
Our destinies are known to Him before we were born, and He knows the choices we will make using our Free Will.
Some use the term ‘predestined’ to project all responsibility upon God for His know, as if it is His fault we do as we do because he knows we will do what we do and does not stop us. In fact, that is the best way to define freedom of choice, that He knows yet He allows us to do it anyway.
Then if we don't have "free will" after surrendering, why is it that we still choose to sin?
Can He be outside AND inside at the same time?
Right now, God is not displeased with me for the sin I will commit tomorrow. He is pleased with me, now. Tomorrow, when I sin, He will BECOME displeased with me, and will bring guilt upon me through the working of the Holy Spirit. After confession and repentance of the sin, God will no longer be displeased with me, but will go back to being pleased with my obedience.
Or is He pleased with me now, for the now, and also at the same time, displeased with me for the tomorrow, and at the same time, pleased again for my repentance after the tomorrow, ---- for all eternity?
I think it is the former, based on all the time indicative adverbs and verb usage He uses in His word. Think "slow to anger", "God became...", "If Israel continues..."
Just a little something I have been thinking about lately.
Or latter, or, I don't know which one is the former or latter anymore. My brain is fried.
I think I mean the first scenario.
i.e. - God has seen the end to this movie. He knows Rosebud is a sled, but he's not gonna tell you! He knows you will not appreciate it unless you discover it for yourself.
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