Posted on 08/12/2007 7:03:32 AM PDT by Ottofire
Seems I indirectly started a series on the Scriptures (and assumed “Scripture” verses) which are alleged to support purgatory. I think I will stay on this subject for awhile. I figure that if a refutation of the doctrine is to be made, it starts with the Scriptures Catholics claim imply a purgatory. With this in mind we go to 2 Timothy 1:16-19 which reads:
May the Lord give mercy to the house of Onesiphorus, because he often refreshed me, and he was not ashamed of my chain, but having come to Rome, he more diligently sought and found me. May the Lord give to him to find mercy from the Lord in that Day. And in what things he served in Ephesus, you know very well.
The argument usually goes like this:
From the context, it seems certain that Onesiphorus is dead (This is also the opinion of the Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible; vol 3; p 603). Paul praises his Christian friend, Onesiphorus, for his good work, but notice Paul does not presume immediate entrance into heaven for his dear friend (Even if Onesiphorus is not dead, Paul still asks the Lord to be merciful). Why be merciful, if all Christians go straight to heaven? We either have Paul praying for a dead person, or we have him interceding for him for mercy on his judgment day. In either case, purgatory alone can explain such thoughts of Paul. If there is no purgatory, then Christians go straight to heaven, which is the popular Protestant belief. If this is so, then Paul's remarks are totally off base; it would be meaningless to ask mercy for Onesiphorus. Purgatory alone makes the passage coherent (see here Purgatory).
Onesiphorus was very faithful. In spite of Paul’s situation (remember Paul was chained to a soldier), he not only sought him out, but did so diligently. Paul was very thankful for his faithful disciple and bestowed his blessing upon him and his family. The context of the passage doesn’t really reveal if Onesiphorus is alive or dead. Paul could have easily stated the same if Onesiphorus was away or jailed; thus he bestows these blessing upon his family residing in Ephesus. The Roman Catholic priest who wrote this allows for the possibility that Onesiphorus is alive, which is a rarity considering many do not waver and claim he is dead. Yet, Catholic tradition state that Onesiphorus died in 81 A.D. (see here: St. Onesiphorus) and considering that these sources place Paul’s death at around 67 A.D. (see here: St. Paul) this would place Onesiphorus’ death some 14 years AFTER Paul. For those who insist that Onesiphorus is dead in the passage, this would be a case where a Catholic tradition contradicts Catholic apologetics.
Yet, the writer assumes that a purgatory is implied even if Onesiphorus is alive and he bases this on Paul’s prayer for mercy on “that Day.” This is a leap in logic considering that God can grant mercy at the general Judgment without the need for a purgatory. This would entail reading purgatory into the verse. There is no reason to jump this far considering that the fact that God allows us into heaven is based on His mercy. But why did Paul specifically pray for mercy upon Onesiphorus, especially if there was no reason to? It can be gathered from the context of the verse that Paul was merely being reciprocal to the house of Onesiphorus. In other words, he prays for mercy upon Onesiphorus because Onesiphorus had mercy on him with his visits. There is no need to inflict purgatory into the verses when there is nothing which lends to it.
In closing, I must mention that, according to Rome, the majority of us will endure purgatory. Only the saints and those who die in martyrdom will bypass it. Scripture evidently speaks of a heaven and a hell, but for purgatory, where the majority will go, it’s odd that the writers can only muster “implications.” That's quite an oversight. Indeed, it is odd that one could only muster implications considering its importance in the afterlife. Asides from its absence in Scripture, we realize that for almost two centuries there was nothing which even remotely resembled afterlife purgatorial thought, Origen and Clement of Alexandria being the first to indulge a concept of it with its fruition coming in the 12th century.
Posted by Churchmouse at 8:05 PM 4 comments
Just a interesting apologetic that I found.
No idea who Churchmouse really is, as 'he' is not identified on 'his' blog...
The first thing to say is that this is sloppy. What exactly does "according to Rome" mean? Is the statement de fide, an opinion, or what? and "the majority of us" is the majority of whom, please? Certainly we'd guess that the majority of those whose final stop is heaven will spend some time in purgatory, but that's not doctrine.
Scripture evidently speaks of a heaven and a hell, but for purgatory, where the majority will go, it’s odd that the writers can only muster “implications.” That's quite an oversight.
ALL of those who "endure", as churchmouse puts it, Purgatory, will end up in Heaven. Purgatory is an interval, a way station, a pause, and from the point of view of eternity, almost a triviality. SO I think it's tendentious to call it "quite an oversight."
Indeed, it is odd that one could only muster implications considering its importance in the afterlife. Asides from its absence in Scripture, we realize that for almost two centuries there was nothing which even remotely resembled afterlife purgatorial thought, Origen and Clement of Alexandria being the first to indulge a concept of it with its fruition coming in the 12th century.
As a matter of fact, we do not "Realize" that,l and that statement is indicative of the lack of care which characterizes this attempt at a refutation. What churchmouse can reasonably say is that we have no surviving record from before Origen and Clement of "afterlife purgatorial thought". He cannot conclude from that that "there was nothing which even remotely resembled ...." He does not know. (or if He does know, he doesn't show us how he knows.
Succumbing to the temptation to present conjecture as known and demonstrated fact is easy and hard to avoid. In this case it casts doubt on the reliability of the writer.
And that doubt is justified, since we find Tertullian writing in the early 200's about 'sacrifices' for the dead being a custom of Christians. I think that would count as "before Origen" and as remotely resembling.
I wonder what churchmouse thinks of the doctrine of the Trinity and and its mention or lack thereof in the early days.
But I guess it needs to be said yet again that the role of "proof from Scripture" is very different in Orthodoxy and Catholicism from what it is in much of Protestantism.
Excuse typos, etc. In haste here ...
Paul is not asking for mercy for him, but for his house,or descendents, big difference
to those who doubt Purgatory I would simply ask:”if there were no purgatory, where was Lazarus before Christ brought him back from the dead?” For Christ to have brought him back from heaven would seem to me to be a gross injustice....from paradise to Earth?????? For Christ to have broght him back from Hell would indeed be unfair to humanity....a second chance for one person???? and at the time of the crucifixation, does not the bible refer to graves being opened and the dead coming back to life?????where were all these people if not purgatory?
By Lazarus I assume you mean Martha and Mary’s brother. Try the same place as Lazarus in the story of the rich man and Lazarus; in the “bosom of Abraham". He died at first under the old covenant, the first fruits, Christ, had not as yet risen from the dead.
There is no purgatory!!!!!! There is no scripture and there is no second chance nonsense so some need to quit fooling themselves!!!!!!!
I am not a RCCer, but I hate to see an error in the presentation of anyones doctrines. They must be shown as heresy as they know it, not from our mistaken representations.
Purgatory is not a second chance, but a place where the residue from sin to be stripped from your soul. Only those headed to heaven can go there, and only those purified can be in the presence of the Father.
...of course it is all medieval hocus-pocus like what Mel added to the Resurrection story to get the Passion.
The problem of traditions, they seem to get layered, one on top of another, and *poof* pretty soon a virgin chosen by God to be the Incarnation’s mom is turned into the Co-Redemptrix and *poof* the Gospel turns into a Galatian-like heresy...
>ALL of those who “endure”, as churchmouse puts it, Purgatory, will end up in Heaven. Purgatory is an interval, a way station, a pause, and from the point of view of eternity, almost a triviality. SO I think it’s tendentious to call it “quite an oversight.”
So when the RCC was selling indulgences of hundreds of years... um... they were wrong, or is a hundred years just a slight pit-stop of torturous purging on the way to eternity?
>And that doubt is justified, since we find Tertullian writing in the early 200’s about ‘sacrifices’ for the dead being a custom of Christians. I think that would count as “before Origen” and as remotely resembling.
Quote please, and source sited. Empty claims are just empty. And if it does not suggest a purging of the residue of sin before heaven, guess what? It is something which MAY suggest it, but that ain’t good enough.
Just like the empty claims the RCC puts on the Marion Doctrines (Luke 1:1-4). Anything added was not known by Luke, or that is what he claims, and he was interviewing the participants, prolly even Mary herself.
Among those who need to quit fooling themselves are those who think they know what we teach when they don't. If you're going to argue with me do your homework. It's not hard to find out what the doctrine is, so there's not much excuse for misrepresenting it, okay?
So when the RCC was selling indulgences of hundreds of years... um... they were wrong,...
I don't see what indulgences has to do with my contention. Seriously. What's the connection?
...or is a hundred years just a slight pit-stop of torturous purging on the way to eternity?
Yes, compared to eternity even thousands of years are just a pit stop.
Quote please, and source sited. [sic]Empty claims are just empty.
So your side does not need to back up its claims but when I make a claim it's an empty claim unless I show otherwise? I do not work in response to rudeness. Google "Tertullian Purgatory", or try asking nicely.
It is something which MAY suggest it, but that ain’t good enough.
I'm sorry. I missed the meeting where you were declared arbiter of what is good enough. Could I see the minutes?
Just like the empty claims the RCC puts on the Marion Doctrines (Luke 1:1-4). Those of us who talk about Mary generally speak of "Marian Doctrines".
Get back to me when you want to have a discussion. It has already been established ad nauseamthat Catholics and some Protestants view the Bible quite differently. Those who say so in a nasty way don't make it any clearer and don't advance discourse. It's so interesting: this morning as I was reading Scripture it came to me that for some the doctrines of Sola Scriptura and double-predestination provide license to express hatred and wrath. It's rather Islamic in the sense that what seems like a reasonable criticism of the Catholic Church for her violence in the past turns out NOT to hinge on a condemnation of wrath but on the fact that it was Catholics being wrathful. Protestant wrath, however, is not only licit but a duty.
Our shall we start again politely and charitably? Your call.
I have to love it :-)
This is probably an ignorant question, but does the Orthodox church also believe in Purgatory or is it an RCC teaching exclusively?
I'm not Ottofire (even though in real life my middle name is Otto) but Google is my friend.
And what I found was, "maybe, maybe not." Interesting links were: here , here, and here.
OI can't remember now where I read it but one sire I saw yesterday said there were only TWO basic de fide aspects of purgatory:
(1) it exists, (2) those in it benefit from our prayers.
Another source said, with equal confidence that there were only THREE basic blah blah:
(1) it exists, (2) those in it benefit from our prayers, and (3) those in purgatory suffer.
FWIW.
“This is probably an ignorant question, but does the Orthodox church also believe in Purgatory....”
NO.
‘Hope you’re enjoying the summer, MD!
Any and all discussion about Purgatory, from a scriptural basis, is already moot since the Protestants stacked the deck against any such discussion, when they removed 2 Macc from the Canon of Scripture.
Period. End of story. Although for anyone who knows this historical fact, it should actually end the story in the Catholic’s favor, since it’s intellectual dishonesty in the least to say otherwise.
Backatcha! last week was purgation enough to last me a while. Was it miserably hot and humid there as well?
Aren't they going to kick you out of the lawyer's union for giving so firm and unequivocal an opinion?
My impression from my skimming was the orthodoxy endorsed as sort of "purgatorial function". I read a great line which has accorded with my alleged thinking that the approach to and experience of the Divine Fire is, to the damned Hell and to the Blessed Heaven and bliss -- and that that same Fire purges the traces of sin.
My own spekkerlation about purgatory is more on a therapeutic than a juridical model. I've articulated it before as not unlike going to Physical Therapy, where (at least at the place where I went) babes (analogous to angels of light) inflict sometimes astonishing pain on you to make you better. (I thought she was just going to pull my arm out of its socket, throw it on the floor and stomp on it -- and now it's better! Wow!)
“My own spekkerlation about purgatory is more on a therapeutic than a juridical model. I’ve articulated it before as not unlike going to Physical Therapy, where (at least at the place where I went) babes (analogous to angels of light) inflict sometimes astonishing pain on you to make you better.”
I am wondering what is the basing of your opinion that Purgatory is like physical therapy and is being of pain.
I am not reading anything that is suggesting an image of “physical therapy pain”. I am only reading that penance in purgatory is being like penance on earth.
I am reading much more but I do not wish to be burdening the peoples of this forum.
Catechism of the Catholic ChurchPART ONE
THE PROFESSION OF FAITH
SECTION TWO
THE PROFESSION OF THE CHRISTIAN FAITH CHAPTER THREE
I BELIEVE IN THE HOLY SPIRIT ARTICLE 12
“I BELIEVE IN LIFE EVERLASTING”
1020 The Christian who unites his own death to that of Jesus views it as a step towards him and an entrance into everlasting life. When the Church for the last time speaks Christ’s words of pardon and absolution over the dying Christian, seals him for the last time with a strengthening anointing, and gives him Christ in viaticum as nourishment for the journey, she speaks with gentle assurance:
Go forth, Christian soul, from this world
in the name of God the almighty Father,
who created you,
in the name of Jesus Christ, the Son of the living God,
who suffered for you,
in the name of the Holy Spirit,
who was poured out upon you.
Go forth, faithful Christian!
May you live in peace this day,
may your home be with God in Zion,
with Mary, the virgin Mother of God,
with Joseph, and all the angels and saints. . . .
May you return to [your Creator]
who formed you from the dust of the earth.
May holy Mary, the angels, and all the saints
come to meet you as you go forth from this life. . . .
May you see your Redeemer face to face. 591
I. THE PARTICULAR JUDGMENT
1021 Death puts an end to human life as the time open to either accepting or rejecting the divine grace manifested in Christ.592 The New Testament speaks of judgment primarily in its aspect of the final encounter with Christ in his second coming, but also repeatedly affirms that each will be rewarded immediately after death in accordance with his works and faith. The parable of the poor man Lazarus and the words of Christ on the cross to the good thief, as well as other New Testament texts speak of a final destiny of the soul—a destiny which can be different for some and for others.593
1022 Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification594 or immediately,595 — or immediate and everlasting damnation.596
At the evening of life, we shall be judged on our love.597
II. HEAVEN
1023 Those who die in God’s grace and friendship and are perfectly purified live for ever with Christ. They are like God for ever, for they “see him as he is,” face to face:598
By virtue of our apostolic authority, we define the following: According to the general disposition of God, the souls of all the saints . . . and other faithful who died after receiving Christ’s holy Baptism (provided they were not in need of purification when they died, . . . or, if they then did need or will need some purification, when they have been purified after death, . . .) already before they take up their bodies again and before the general judgment - and this since the Ascension of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ into heaven - have been, are and will be in heaven, in the heavenly Kingdom and celestial paradise with Christ, joined to the company of the holy angels. Since the Passion and death of our Lord Jesus Christ, these souls have seen and do see the divine essence with an intuitive vision, and even face to face, without the mediation of any creature.599
1024 This perfect life with the Most Holy Trinity - this communion of life and love with the Trinity, with the Virgin Mary, the angels and all the blessed - is called “heaven.” Heaven is the ultimate end and fulfillment of the deepest human longings, the state of supreme, definitive happiness.
1025 To live in heaven is “to be with Christ.” The elect live “in Christ,”600 but they retain, or rather find, their true identity, their own name.601
For life is to be with Christ; where Christ is, there is life, there is the kingdom.602
1026 By his death and Resurrection, Jesus Christ has “opened” heaven to us. The life of the blessed consists in the full and perfect possession of the fruits of the redemption accomplished by Christ. He makes partners in his heavenly glorification those who have believed in him and remained faithful to his will. Heaven is the blessed community of all who are perfectly incorporated into Christ.
1027 This mystery of blessed communion with God and all who are in Christ is beyond all understanding and description. Scripture speaks of it in images: life, light, peace, wedding feast, wine of the kingdom, the Father’s house, the heavenly Jerusalem, paradise: “no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man conceived, what God has prepared for those who love him.”603
1028 Because of his transcendence, God cannot be seen as he is, unless he himself opens up his mystery to man’s immediate contemplation and gives him the capacity for it. The Church calls this contemplation of God in his heavenly glory “the beatific vision”:
How great will your glory and happiness be, to be allowed to see God, to be honored with sharing the joy of salvation and eternal light with Christ your Lord and God, . . . to delight in the joy of immortality in the Kingdom of heaven with the righteous and God’s friends.604
1029 In the glory of heaven the blessed continue joyfully to fulfill God’s will in relation to other men and to all creation. Already they reign with Christ; with him “they shall reign for ever and ever.”605
III. THE FINAL PURIFICATION, OR PURGATORY
1030 All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.
1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607
As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.608
1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: “Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.”609 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.610 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:
Let us help and commemorate them. If Job’s sons were purified by their father’s sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.611
The punishments of sin
1472 To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the “eternal punishment” of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the “temporal punishment” of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.84
1473 The forgiveness of sin and restoration of communion with God entail the remission of the eternal punishment of sin, but temporal punishment of sin remains. While patiently bearing sufferings and trials of all kinds and, when the day comes, serenely facing death, the Christian must strive to accept this temporal punishment of sin as a grace. He should strive by works of mercy and charity, as well as by prayer and the various practices of penance, to put off completely the “old man” and to put on the “new man.”85
JOHN PAUL II
GENERAL AUDIENCE
Wednesday 4 August 1999
1. As we have seen in the previous two catecheses, on the basis of the definitive option for or against God, the human being finds he faces one of these alternatives: either to live with the Lord in eternal beatitude, or to remain far from his presence.
For those who find themselves in a condition of being open to God, but still imperfectly, the journey towards full beatitude requires a purification, which the faith of the Church illustrates in the doctrine of ‘Purgatory’ (cf. Catechism of the Catholic Church, n. 1030-1032).
2. In Sacred Scripture, we can grasp certain elements that help us to understand the meaning of this doctrine, even if it is not formally described. They express the belief that we cannot approach God without undergoing some kind of purification.
According to Old Testament religious law, what is destined for God must be perfect. As a result, physical integrity is also specifically required for the realities which come into contact with God at the sacrificial level such as, for example, sacrificial animals (cf. Lv 22:22) or at the institutional level, as in the case of priests or ministers of worship (cf. Lv 21:17-23). Total dedication to the God of the Covenant, along the lines of the great teachings found in Deuteronomy (cf. 6:5), and which must correspond to this physical integrity, is required of individuals and society as a whole (cf. 1 Kgs 8:61). It is a matter of loving God with all one’s being, with purity of heart and the witness of deeds (cf. ibid., 10:12f.)
The need for integrity obviously becomes necessary after death, for entering into perfect and complete communion with God. Those who do not possess this integrity must undergo purification. This is suggested by a text of St Paul. The Apostle speaks of the value of each person’s work which will be revealed on the day of judgement and says: ‘If the work which any man has built on the foundation [which is Christ] survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire’ (1 Cor 3:14-15).
3. At times, to reach a state of perfect integrity a person’s intercession or mediation is needed. For example, Moses obtains pardon for the people with a prayer in which he recalls the saving work done by God in the past, and prays for God’s fidelity to the oath made to his ancestors (cf. Ex 32:30, 11-13). The figure of the Servant of the Lord, outlined in the Book of Isaiah, is also portrayed by his role of intercession and expiation for many; at the end of his suffering he ‘will see the light’ and ‘will justify many’, bearing their iniquities (cf. Is 52:13-53, 12, especially vv. 53:11).
Psalm 51 can be considered, according to the perspective of the Old Testament, as a synthesis of the process of reintegration: the sinner confesses and recognizes his guilt (v. 3), asking insistently to be purified or ‘cleansed’ (vv. 2, 9, 10, 17) so as to proclaim the divine praise (v. 15).
4. In the New Testament Christ is presented as the intercessor who assumes the functions of high priest on the day of expiation (cf. Heb 5:7; 7:25). But in him the priesthood is presented in a new and definitive form. He enters the heavenly shrine once and for all, to intercede with God on our behalf (cf. Heb 9:23-26, especially, v. 24). He is both priest and ‘victim of expiation’ for the sins of the whole world (cf. 1 Jn 2:2).
Jesus, as the great intercessor who atones for us, will fully reveal himself at the end of our life when he will express himself with the offer of mercy, but also with the inevitable judgement for those who refuse the Father’s love and forgiveness.
This offer of mercy does not exclude the duty to present ourselves to God, pure and whole, rich in that love which Paul calls a ‘[bond] of perfect harmony’ (Col 3:14).
5. In following the Gospel exhortation to be perfect like the heavenly Father (cf. Mt 5:48) during our earthly life, we are called to grow in love, to be sound and flawless before God the Father ‘at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all his saints’ (1 Thes 3:12f.). Moreover, we are invited to ‘cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit’ (2 Cor 7:1; cf. 1 Jn 3:3), because the encounter with God requires absolute purity.
Every trace of attachment to evil must be eliminated, every imperfection of the soul corrected. Purification must be complete, and indeed this is precisely what is meant by the Church’s teaching on purgatory. The term does not indicate a place, but a condition of existence. Those who, after death, exist in a state of purification, are already in the love of Christ who removes from them the remnants of imperfection (cf. Ecumenical Council of Florence, Decretum pro Graecis: DS 1304; Ecumenical Council of Trent, Decretum de iustificatione: DS 1580; Decretum de purgatorio: DS 1820).
It is necessary to explain that the state of purification is not a prolungation of the earthly condition, almost as if after death one were given another possibility to change one’s destiny. The Church’s teaching in this regard is unequivocal and was reaffirmed by the Second Vatican Council which teaches: ‘Since we know neither the day nor the hour, we should follow the advice of the Lord and watch constantly so that, when the single course of our earthly life is completed (cf. Heb 9:27), we may merit to enter with him into the marriage feast and be numbered among the blessed, and not, like the wicked and slothful servants, be ordered to depart into the eternal fire, into the outer darkness where “men will weep and gnash their teeth’ (Mt 22:13 and 25:30)” (Lumen gentium, n. 48).
6. One last important aspect which the Church’s tradition has always pointed out should be reproposed today: the dimension of ‘communio’. Those, in fact, who find themselves in the state of purification are united both with the blessed who already enjoy the fullness of eternal life, and with us on this earth on our way towards the Father’s house (cf. CCC, n. 1032).
Just as in their earthly life believers are united in the one Mystical Body, so after death those who live in a state of purification experience the same ecclesial solidarity which works through prayer, prayers for suffrage and love for their other brothers and sisters in the faith. Purification is lived in the essential bond created between those who live in this world and those who enjoy eternal beatitude.
* * * * *
Dear Brothers and Sisters,
Following our catechesis on the reality of heaven and hell, today we consider “Purgatory”, the process of purification for those who die in the love of God but who are not completely imbued with that love.
Sacred Scripture teaches us that we must be purified if we are to enter into perfect and complete union with God. Jesus Christ, who became the perfect expiation for our sins and took upon himself the punishment that was our due, brings us God’s mercy and love. But before we enter into God’s Kingdom every trace of sin within us must be eliminated, every imperfection in our soul must be corrected. This is exactly what takes place in Purgatory. Those who live in this state of purification after death are not separated from God but are immersed in the love of Christ. Neither are they separated from the saints in heaven - who already enjoy the fullness of eternal life - nor from us on earth - who continue on our pilgrim journey to the Father’s house. We all remain united in the Mystical Body of Christ, and we can therefore offer up prayers and good works on behalf of our brothers and sisters in Purgatory.
* * * * *
I am pleased to greet the English-speaking visitors and pilgrims present at today’s Audience, especially those from England, Ireland, Indonesia, Hong Kong, Japan and the United States. Upon all of you I invoke the grace and peace of our Lord Jesus Christ. Happy summer holidays to you all!
Incarnationis Mysterium
BULL OF INDICTION
OF THE GREAT JUBILEE
OF THE YEAR 2000
Let us therefore look to the future. The merciful Father takes no account of the sins for which we are truly sorry (cf. Is 38:17). He is now doing something new, and in the love which forgives he anticipates the new heavens and the new earth. Therefore, so that there may be a renewed commitment to Christian witness in the world of the next millennium, let faith be refreshed, let hope increase and let charity exert itself still more.
Thanking you
I ask you to note that I said "spekkerlation" which is a joking mis-writing of "speculation". By this I meant that I meant in no way that it was an authoritative idea, but merely an idea to kick around.
However I would say as one general principle that God means our good and that the law of God is not a set of rules but also can be thought of as guide to live our lives in the way that is best for us. The word Torah includes "Teaching" among its meanings - and for that reason I sometimes like to use the word "instruction" to translate it, since that has both the sense of a command you must obey and a teaching which will help you do something.
I'd add that loving God is not just a passion. It's an action. Sin inhibits virtuous actions in many ways. There is simply the habit, the custom, the "conditioned reflex" of sin in many cases. From Eden until today sin alienates us from the Truth and thus from ourselves. It dis-integrates us.
Please bear in mind that long posts of quoted material are, as you say, a burden. It takes a lot of my time and my very small supply of moral energy to hack through them. Have mercy on me!
Now, let's see what we can find:
Clearly the principle image or metaphor is one of purification, of cleansing. Holiness is also in there.
So now, in my self-centeredness, I present the analogy of my shoulder injury:
I had lived a vicious life -- ALL I mean by that was that I was not in good physical condition. This is an analogy, after all.
I sinned repeatedly. That is I used my shoulder muscles incorrectly as I scooped feed to mix (300 lbs a day) and feed it to my sheep.
Part of the reason for my using my shoulder badly was that I was weak. The general sin enhanced the likelihood of the particular sin.
I ended up in such pain that I could not sleep well because whatever position I I was in, the inflamed ligament (sub-acromial for those taking notes) was always stressed a little. I had to be careful how I sat down. Even typing on the computer was agony. The temporal punishment of sin includes trashing the ability to enjoy life's good things and an increasing general incapacity for life and all life promises.
(As it happened, at the same time this was happening, my now former physician had poisoned me with a statin that made me almost suicidal, led me to think I was getting early-onset Alzheimer's, and deprived me of my sense of taste and smell. It was one of the most frightening times of my life. AND I had to sell my sheep and go out of business. I HAVE had more fun at the dentist's office.)
I expect that the problem the sinner has in facing God is not merely arbitrary. It's not that God won't let sinners close because he doesn't like having them around. We simply cannot bear, we are not "strong" enough for His naked Presence if we are any way compromised by Sin. So the temporal punishment for Sin is an inability to enjoy the Good as well as created goods, and it is out of Love and solicitude that He, in a certain sense (Catholic waffle words) keeps us at a distance.
As you can see, I hope, I am only making an analogy. But in that connection it is important to point out that our life is the analogy. God is truly Father and Spouse and Friend. To the extent that those words are used of me, they are used, almost one might say charitably and forgivingly, as if to say Mad Dawg occasionally does something which, in the dark with the light behind it, might be mistaken for Fatherhood, Husbandhood (?), Friendship.
I mention that to say that I don't think we can safely forget that words like "purity" can only perfectly rightly be applied to God.
But still we can think about them and play with them. For example there's a nice connection between purity and integrity. Pure water is wholly water and nothing else. If I want the "Virtues" of water, presumably pure water will give me them more fully than will impure water. Pure water is "Stronger" water than impure, as pure Scotch is stronger than Scotch and water.
(And that's a fine example of why these are all metaphors. I think to really get the flavor of a good scotch one needs to add a splash of water to "release" the bouquet and taste. But we could make another metaphor that to get the REAL experience of being human we need an admixture of grace. But that's a weak metaphor, I think.)
ANYWAY, So if I think of the enjoyment of God as an action which requires spiritual strength and integrity, then I can see that the "natural" temporal punishment of sin is to inhibit if not destroy my ability not only to love God and enjoy Him, but even to WANT to love Him etc. I think if one could speak of putting someone in heaven, if I were plopped in heaven right now, without some transformation in my makeup, I'd be miserable.
When I consider how much I suffer when I am confronted with my own sins, I blush, I look away, and so forth, I can imagine that the suffering of Purgatory are intense. But to KNOW that at their end lies the beatific vision?
WOW! Bring it ON!
So that's very like what physical therapy was like: Hope and good humor and increasing strength and ability and the restoration of the strength and power God meant me to have.
If that doesn't show up in the documents of the Vatican, it's only because I'm on dial-up, and they haven't been able to get through to me and find out what I think. I'm trying to keep my phone line clear for their call.
Yes. I'm joking.
I see not hint of purgatory in that verse. And if you’re relying on your good works for partial payment good luck with that ...
Would you be so kind as to share what Catholic teaching (if any) you are addressing here?
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