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To: the_conscience
Dawg, I'm sure you'd agree that both are experiences.

Actually I wouldn't. I mean, yeah, I'm awake and sense perception is happening, but I don't go to Mass for an experience(unless you count unspeakably banal hymnody as a kind of experience of "mortification" ...)
Humma, humma.
I hope we can work to dope out where the disagreement is. Also I'd balk at "based on". And I'd fall on the ground laughing at "euphoria". I don't go to Mass, fiddle with my rosary, "read" my office, or pester God all the live long day to "Feel" or experience something.

One of my own personal put-down phrases for a certain type of person is "consolation junky" (consolation being the calflick term of art for "warm, fuzzy" it having suffered the same debasement as "comfort" did in English speaking traditions). This is my term for people for whom the basis of their "religiosity" is experience, sensation, "feeling", blah blah, and much of whose discourse is about past experiences and their hopes for future experiences.

As far as the general principles go, I think I'm pretty much on board. The "news" that Jesus loves YOU, qua you, your own se'f, and "has put away all your sins", the "hearing" of that (as in, "Me? ME? You mean He loves ME? Woah!") is a critical "moment" in life in Christ.

I have nattered on and on elsewhere of a very funny and cute LOL (In this context meaning "little old lady") whom I really like who spent much of her life being a dutiful little Catholic girl, woman, wife, mother, widow -- and just a couple of years ago finally got it! She is now a little evangelical catholic dynamo!

Knowing her has confirmed in me my notion that the Holy Spirit may be active in one's life w/o one having a clue -- until one day when the whole weltanschauung is turned upside down.

I'm trying to run an inventory on the self here, and the most "experience-like" aspect of my personal religiosity (that I'm aware of - self-assessment is such an unreliable tool when a sinner is doing it) would be intellectual thrills and chills.

Try this as an inadequate analogy: Spiritual exercises or activities or whatever -- Mass, rosary, prayers, study -- these are in some respects like taking a pill and in some respects like exercising, in this way: Working with exercise equipment is so evidently futile, and deadly boring. "Okay, we are going to do three sets of 15 curls of 25 lb dumbbells." ("Oh Goody! Not."). OR, "You will now receive this injection or swallow this bolus." ("But, but, how does that little pill have anything whatsoever to do with my running a fever and producing industrial amounts of mucus?" "Trust me on this.")

But after a lot of pills or months of juggling dumbbells, maybe somebody says,"Hey? did you get a haircut or something?" Or (for the other side of the analogy) you realize that your taking a couple of gourmet beers and a bunch of high-class snack food to someone you hardly know but you know he likes beer (and so do you) AND he just broke his leg in three places qualifies as a "work of mercy".

And you're going, WOW! I didn't even plan on doing something good!

Or with the pills (I've had pneumonia twice, so I KNOW this sequence), you wake up drenched in sweat, cough up double industrial amounts of goo, and the next day you feel pretty darn good! THEN you realize, "wow! I guess the pills did some good!" And for the other side, you discover that your little, ahem, "disagreements" with the boss-lady are more productive of mutual understanding and less generally awful, and you finally say, "This is the Lord's doing - I sure couldn't have done it - and it is marvellous in our eyes!".

These are lousy analogies. My alleged point is that "experience" and "feeling" is really not a part of at least MY spearchool milieu/approach. I like to say "Service is the best metric," NOT in the sense that I think service buys me admission to the heavenly courts, but that if I am helping other people and especially if I am somehow part of their living into the Love which God's Son died for them to enjoy, then I guess my "spiritual life" (I don't like that phrase, but I hope you know what I mean) is ticking along okay.

I feel like I"m groping for common ground and a dialectical starting point here. I hope it's okay if I politely ignore all the Machiavelli stuff. Having been a clergy-dude myself, I've never had very high expectations of the clergy in any event.

21 posted on 08/20/2007 3:49:55 AM PDT by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: Mad Dawg
Just to set the record straight I accept your testimony that you have good habits of faith and well-ordered subjective states (probably a result of a sound protestant background) but you seem to be missing the larger point that corporate culture can lead to an overemphasis on subjective states as a means to truth.

Euphoria as masochism is seen all around us in the forms of piercings and tattoos and other forms of self-mutilation so the Roman Catholic version is but a subset of the many forms available for people seeking euphoria thru self-mutilation.

If we can get by the anecdotal evidences and move onto the histiograph and sociology, and most importantly the doctrinal depravities that need reforming on a corporate level then perhaps we can find a dialectical starting point by which can mutually strive to bring the greatest glory to God instead of what brings the greatest glory to the corporation.

22 posted on 08/20/2007 9:25:18 PM PDT by the_conscience
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