Posted on 08/17/2007 5:24:46 AM PDT by maryz
The Tidings, the newspaper of the Los Angeles Archdiocese, carries an article pretty much deriding the Tridentine Mass. It was written by two priests, columnists for Catholic News Service, which in turn belongs to the USCCB. The funny thing is that it purports to present the view of two priests, so you might be led to believe it's "point - counterpoint." Not so. Excerpts
In this article, Fathers Peter J. Daly (ordained in 1986) and Eugene Hemick (ordained in 1963) --- both columnists with Catholic News Service --- offer their views on celebrating the Tridentine Mass.Will anyone come?
By Rev. Peter J. DalyThe parish just to the west of mine has been celebrating the pre-Vatican II Latin Mass for more than 15 years. The pastor has special permission granted years ago by the former Archbishop of Washington, Cardinal James Hickey. He is also one of the few priests around who remembers the pre-1962 ritual.
Almost nobody comes.
He gets about 30 people per Sunday, even though his is the only Latin Mass for at least 40 miles around in an area that encompasses more than 20 parishes.
Most of the people who come are elderly. They like this Mass because it is quiet and short. It reminds them of the olds days. A few young people come once in a while out of curiosity. They do not come back often. [Well, he should check out the Tridentine Mass in San Diego - twice every Sunday - it's full and the average age is much lower than in an average parish. You'd think he cherry-picked this example.]
. . .
A few folks from my parish go over to my neighbor's parish for the Latin Mass. Mostly they are quite elderly. They don't like all the singing at my parish. They don't like shaking hands. They don't like Communion in both forms. They don't like having three readings.
They tell me what they like most about the Latin Mass is that they can get in and get out in less than 45 minutes. They put a high premium on speed. A good liturgy is a short liturgy.
For them a good liturgy also is one where they don't have to speak to anyone or do anything. Their whole attitude says "I want no commitment and I want no communication." Hardly the "full and active participation" that Vatican II called for.
So now that Pope Benedict XVI has issued his "motu proprio" permitting the celebration of the pre-Vatican II Latin Mass, will there be big crowds at the Latin Mass? Will more parishes start to offer it? I doubt it.
Apart from the schismatic followers of Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre and a few young people who are nostalgic for a church they never knew, almost nobody is pressing for it. Nobody under the age of 55 even remembers the old Latin ritual.
I think my neighbor's experience will be the experience of the church. We can offer it. But almost nobody will come.
What a prickly article...Calling Father Z. :) The second column is less hostile, the priest voices his concerns that priests and laity don't know Latin well enough.
You know, if no one will come, why are these people so "concerned"? Mahony will still do his dog and pony shows with tie dyed dancers, vestal virgins, wicker baskets and kool aid pitchers.
Some people will come...it will become the Catholic version of the independent, separated, fundamental Baptist. Meanwhile, the decline in Novus Ordo American Catholicism will continue.
The Tridentine Mass: The views of two priests
In a recent "motu proprio," Pope Benedict XVI relaxed restrictions on the use of the Tridentine Mass, the Latin-language liturgy that predates the Second Vatican Council. The pope said that while the new Roman Missal, introduced in 1970, remains the ordinary way of Catholic worship, Mass celebrated according to the 1962 Roman Missal, commonly known as the Tridentine rite, should be made available in every parish where groups of the faithful desire it. In this article, Fathers Peter J. Daly (ordained in 1986) and Eugene Hemick (ordained in 1963) --- both columnists with Catholic News Service --- offer their views on celebrating the Tridentine Mass.
Will anyone come?
By Rev. Peter J. Daly
The parish just to the west of mine has been celebrating the pre-Vatican II Latin Mass for more than 15 years. The pastor has special permission granted years ago by the former Archbishop of Washington, Cardinal James Hickey. He is also one of the few priests around who remembers the pre-1962 ritual.
Almost nobody comes.
He gets about 30 people per Sunday, even though his is the only Latin Mass for at least 40 miles around in an area that encompasses more than 20 parishes.
Most of the people who come are elderly. They like this Mass because it is quiet and short. It reminds them of the olds days. A few young people come once in a while out of curiosity. They do not come back often.
My neighboring pastor is a bit exasperated with the whole thing. It means a lot of work for him. Under the old liturgy the priest did just about everything. The people who come to the Latin Mass like that part of the tradition just fine. They don't think they should have to do anything but show up. After all, it is the priest who says Mass. They are just spectators.
Before Vatican II's reforms, there were no lectors or eucharistic ministers. The servers said most of the responses. A lot of the prayers were said "sotto voce," i.e., inaudibly.
For my neighbor, the extra liturgy means that he has had to move the altar used for the Mass facing the people. (He has recently stopped doing this because nobody showed up to help him.) Then he has to set out different books and change into different vestments.
Most inconvenient of all, he has to prepare and preach a different homily.
Why a different homily? Because there are different readings. In the pre-1962 liturgy there was a one-year cycle of readings. We read only an Epistle and a Gospel. There were no readings from the Old Testament. We didn't hear much of the Bible and it was heard in Latin.
Since the reforms of Vatican II our book of readings for Sundays (Lectionary) has a three-year cycle, which includes readings from the Hebrew Scriptures. So my neighbor can't even preach the same homily for the Latin and English Masses on most Sundays.
A few folks from my parish go over to my neighbor's parish for the Latin Mass. Mostly they are quite elderly. They don't like all the singing at my parish. They don't like shaking hands. They don't like Communion in both forms. They don't like having three readings.
They tell me what they like most about the Latin Mass is that they can get in and get out in less than 45 minutes. They put a high premium on speed. A good liturgy is a short liturgy.
For them a good liturgy also is one where they don't have to speak to anyone or do anything. Their whole attitude says "I want no commitment and I want no communication." Hardly the "full and active participation" that Vatican II called for.
So now that Pope Benedict XVI has issued his "motu proprio" permitting the celebration of the pre-Vatican II Latin Mass, will there be big crowds at the Latin Mass? Will more parishes start to offer it? I doubt it.
Apart from the schismatic followers of Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre and a few young people who are nostalgic for a church they never knew, almost nobody is pressing for it. Nobody under the age of 55 even remembers the old Latin ritual.
I think my neighbor's experience will be the experience of the church. We can offer it. But almost nobody will come.
Are we 'Latinized' enough?
By Rev. Eugene Hemrick
It seems like only yesterday that I was celebrating Mass in Latin with my back to the people. Perhaps it was my Italian background or having inherited the musical side of my family, but I really enjoyed singing Mass in Latin. The vowel sounds in Romantic languages add a certain beauty to singing that is ever so melodious.
In preparation for celebrating Mass in Latin, we studied Latin for five years in the minor seminary and then read and spoke it for seven years in the major seminary. Those 12 years of study truly Latinized us.
The Tridentine Mass is more than reciting Mass in Latin; it also contains a long list of traditions. Its rubrics were much more numerous than those for today's Mass.
For example, when a priest ascended the altar he was to start with his right foot. Even his most minute gesture was measured for correctness.
Many of the Masses during the week were requiem Masses (for the dead) in which the priest wore black vestments.
Women weren't allowed to serve Mass. Only a priest could touch the chalice and ciborium. Altar rails were common, and everyone received the Eucharist on the tongue. The Communion fast began at midnight.
With Pope Benedict XVI promoting the Tridentine Mass, many priests and laypersons are concerned about further divisions this may cause in parish communities. What concerns me more, however, is the manner in which the Tridentine Mass will be celebrated.
Most of today's priests are well-versed in languages, especially Spanish. Most, however, are not schooled in Latin. In fact, most don't know Latin nor have they been properly trained in the rubrics of the Tridentine Mass.
In studies of the priesthood, priests have told us that the celebration of Mass is at the heart of their life. As true as this is, celebrating Mass or, as is often the case today, several Masses in a day taxes a priest's ability to be reverent, one in thought with the words he is reciting. Even when you are speaking in your mother tongue, it is easy to just mouth the words and go through the motions.
What concerns me is a younger generation that is not Latinized enough to make the Tridentine Mass truly reverent and meaningful. Most have not endured the rigors of learning Latin, speaking and studying in it. The language and culture of Cicero and the early church are foreign to them.
The word "hypocrite" means to playact, to take on the character of someone other than oneself. My prayer is that when priests new to Latin celebrate the Tridentine Mass today they not playact --- that the Latin spoken becomes a true part of them.
---CNS
Good point,Mary. I remember the Latin mass well,and I remember it was a unifying force-not a time saver.
I could go to a church in an Italian,Spanish, or Polish parish, and hear the mass in Latin-even though I didn’t have a clue as to what the announcements meant.
I believe the RC church, in its zeal to become “more like” its Anglican/Lutheran competitors,lost its way.
I know I lost all interest about that time.
Yes, as I remember it, the old Mass was longer than the new -- only by about 5 or 10 minutes, but longer. I can't believe the transparent excuses they trot out!
I sometimes forget many Protestant churches are going through a like struggle. Assuming you're Baptist, best of luck!
Nope, I’m not...the entire church in America is going through a struggle at the moment, and will come out more faithful - and much, much smaller.
In Boston we were reported as a very small number of elderly too. The Bishop said to me when he came for the pastors 50th, he didn’t realize Father had such a large family. I said he doesn’t That’s his sister over there. All the children were parishioners. He was quite surprised.
Imagine priests lying about the TLM. Shocking!
Well, . . . best of luck anyway! I’m not much good at prognostication myself. ;-)
As today, we all know who are the slowies and who are the zippies. Nothing's changed.
Those who have "lost interest" in the Mass have lost interest in the fundamentals....being able to unite with God, His Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity. SUCH a sad statement!! It's the saddest thing I've heard in all my life....lost interest? Wow, might as well pack it in.
Every Catholic parish in the Northeast has a Novus Ordo Mass at 7:00 or 7:30 AM on Sunday that lasts 30 minutes, tops.
Many parishes on the Jersey Shore have two Masses on Saturday evening - one 45-60 minutes and a 30 minute one as well.
Pretty much every Tridentine Mass I've ever attended has been 60 minutes.
The 9:00 Tridentine Mass at my parish (which draws 225 people to a building designed for 250) was normally 75 minutes long, but now it is 60 minutes on Sundays to accomodate the 10:30 Massgoers' complaints about parking lot space. It is still 75 minutes on Holy Days and Votives by popular demand.
These two have no clue what they are talking about.
That's a very charitable view, and I commend you for it!
I know — the different titles made normal search useless! Well, that’s life . . . ;-)
Fr. Andrew Daly claims that the parish "just to the west" of his has a Latin Mass and that this Latin Mass is the only one "for at least 40 miles around."
The only Fr. Andrew Daly serving in the Archdiocese of Washington is the pastor of St. John Vianney in Frederick, MD.
The parish "just to the west" of his is Jesus The Divine Word parish in Huntingtown, which does not have a Latin Mass.
There is a Latin Mass at St. Joseph in Emmittsburg, which is 24 miles from Frederick. There is also a Latin Mass at St. Mary's in Barnesville which is 18 miles from Frederick.
There are also Latin Masses in Silver Spring, Baltimore, Washington DC, and Benedict.
You’re right. Holds true for the upper midwest, too. I remember as a kid going to 7:00 Mass (1970 Missal), and it was 30-35 minutes, tops.
Seriously, very excellent and thorough research! (Are you a lawyer by any chance?)
Here on the Jersey Shore in summer the 30 min 7:00 Novus Ordo is packed to the gills with beachgoers who want to get in a quick Mass before the real tanning time of the day. 12:15 Mass is empty.
Also, in the fall, the 30 min Novus Ordo 6:00 Saturday Vigil Mass is standing room only so football fans can spend all Sunday watching the games.
I highly doubt that Fr. Daly is unfamiliar with this phenomenon in his suburban parish.
Here on the Jersey Shore in summer the 30 min 7:00 Novus Ordo is packed to the gills with beachgoers who want to get in a quick Mass before the real tanning time of the day. 12:15 Mass is empty.
Also, in the fall, the 30 min Novus Ordo 6:00 Saturday Vigil Mass is standing room only so football fans can spend all Sunday watching the games.
I highly doubt that Fr. Daly is unfamiliar with this phenomenon in his suburban parish.
Worse.
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